Why Middle Management Is The Hardest Job
The latest HR Leaders podcast explores empowering mid-level managers through supportive environments, clear communication, and stress management tools. Experts advise building manager communities, fostering trust, and using data to guide development. Listen to learn more about driving organizational success.
In the latest HR Leaders episode, industry experts discussed empowering mid-level managers and enhancing their effectiveness within organizations.
Top experts in HR, Talent Management, and Learning & Development shared their insights on creating supportive work environments, the importance of clear communication, and practical tools for prioritizing tasks and managing stress.
🎓 What you will learn:
Practical tools for prioritizing tasks and managing stress
Creating supportive work environments for mid-level managers
Fostering a culture of trust and empowerment among managers
Strategies for aligning management practices with organizational goals
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Chris Rainey 0:07
Hi, everyone. Good morning. Good afternoon. Good evening, depending on where you're tuning in from. My name is Chris Rainey, co founder here at HR leaders. And I'll be your host for today's live panel discussion, where we're going to be talking about how to empower our mid level managers and strategies for balancing individual team and organizational needs. As always, before we jump into discussion, for those of you that are new, let me give you a very quick tour of the platform. On the right hand side, you'll be able to see the live chat. So take a second now let everyone know who you are, where you're tuning in from around the world, drop a link to your LinkedIn while you're there, make sure you connect with each other. Also, make sure you hit the green Follow button on the top right hand side and you'll be emailed a copy of the on demand recording, so you don't miss out as well and also for the future events. So with that being said, let me introduce you to our amazing panelists. Firstly, we've got Lee Andrews, who is the Vice President and global head of talent acquisition, and executive search at Halle on we've got currently faltan, who's a senior director of Pupil analytics at Eli Lilly and Company. Maddy Walton, who's a senior manager of talent for indoor home and jewelry brands at fiscales group, Emily Killam, who is the Senior Director of Pupil only, except for septics. And last was saying at least, we've got Jennifer Christian, who is the director of corporate learning at Farmer's Insurance. Jennifer, I said I was going to pick on you first backstage, so I'm gonna come to you if that's all right. How are you supporting mid level managers in aligning their management practices with the organization's goals.
Jennifer Christian 1:39
So what I would say is it really starts with alignment at the top. And you need a clear strategy, and then expected behaviors that support the strategy. So I've been at farmers for about 20 years now. And traditionally, we've worked a lot in silos, I would say, last year, we have a new CEO. And one of the first things that he did was grab a cross functional team of about 60 employees. And they represented all levels of employees, they also represented all aspects of the business, he pulled that group together, and they set about creating our strategy. As a group, what that did was one, it created a very clear strategy that was aligned across all levels, and all different business units. But it also created natural champions within the business units. So that way, they could help communicate what strategy was, and then also bring that strategy to life. In addition, the other big thing that we started to do this year, so that was a lot of the work last year, creating the strategy. This year, we really got aligned on performance expectations. And that, again, it started at the top. This was the first time I think our executive committee came together, as they're reviewing, you know, the annual performance, they actually sat down and reviewed together, what is good look like for for their executives, their direct reports, and then that really started to trickle down across the organization, as we, you know, again, as we got greater alignment. The other big thing that we did this year is we really started to agree on what's expected of farmers, people leaders, you know, again, in years past, we've we've had, like many little companies within farmers operating under their own expectations. This is the first time where I could actually describe to you what does it mean to be a leader at farmers. And I know exactly what those behaviors are. And every people leader should know that as well. Because it's been trickled down. It's being lived. And we're creating development that also supports that. So we looked at what was our strategy? What behaviors do we need to have to support that strategy. It's all about being a high performance culture right now. And then we created development that really supports that. And the development doesn't just stop at course completion. Or, you know, checking the box that I've done training, it really is. Their leaders are talking to them about what it means to be a people leader. They're following up with them. And then we're also sharing with their teams. This is what I'm doing as a new leader. This is what I'm really working on. So I need feedback. And that's being tracked across the whole organization. And I guess the final aspect, I would say is what measures matters. So that's the other aspect is that it's not just lip service, but we're also we've described success measures, we're tracking things. There's dashboards that we've created to keep a pulse on, where are we really at and where do we still have room for improvement? And again, just being a lot more transparent about that across the board. Word. So starts with that very aligned strategy, and then really communicating that out and having very clear expectations, and then all your development supports that. I
Chris Rainey 5:11
will say one thing, and then I'll hand over to one after another. What does what did you decide on what some of those expectations are? You know, you mentioned, what does it mean to be a leader within your organization? What were some of those things that surfaced that now when people talk about it that everyone's aligned on?
Maddie Walton 5:26
Yeah, so the first thing we've talked about, so one of the things we created as part of this strategy were these six how tos. So these are six behaviors that bring our strategy to life, one of the first behaviors is I need to own it. So I am accountable, not just for the work that I'm assigned, but I'm accountable for the outcomes. And so all of our leaders and employees should be able to describe what the that actually looks like in terms of owning it. We're also talking a lot about strategic alignment. So is the work that I'm doing really supporting the strategy, am I saying yes to the right things, and no to those things that would distract me from being able to help make progress towards our goals. Those are just a couple that are on our radar right now.
Chris Rainey 6:16
And when you jump in, I can see you waiting to jump in. And when I go on, go for it. I know he was waiting for everyone else, but go on. Thanks,
Emily Killham 6:25
Jeff, I love what you said about how you how you're doing this strategic alignment. And I think what sometimes trips people up then when they're when they're doing that is when the rewards don't necessarily match the behaviors that have been defined. So you tell me the behaviors, I learned the behaviors, and one of the things we find that managers tell us then is, well, that's great, I want to do all those behaviors, I would like to do that, except that my job is getting in the way. And so being able to do both of those things in this in this place where managers are telling us they're being asked to do more with less every single day. Ensuring that all of those behaviors are are connected to the things that they're measured on outside of those behaviors. So the productivity measures that store performance wherever, wherever you're working. Yeah,
Maddie Walton 7:19
yeah, great question, and absolutely a pain point that we had to work through. Because you're right on our managers, or, you know, they've got more people reporting to them. They're, they're not just a coach, but they're the player too. So they're having to balance that. So that's one of the things that we really aim to look at is, how do we right size, that job and the expectation of their job, especially if our primary expectation of them is that they're holding their teams accountable, they're developing their people. You know, that if that's where we want to focus then than some of the other stuff that they're doing really has to go. So again, it came back to that idea of being strategic alignment. And are you saying yes, to the right things? And no to those things that that don't really align to the work? And are you really making sure that the right people are doing the work? I know, even for me, I'm tempted to get in there and do things myself, instead of enabling my team. So one of the big things that we talked about is how do you with with true enablement and empowerment? It's getting decision making into the, you know, to the right people, like I don't need to be the bottleneck for everything. And so you don't necessarily need to send all of your work, to me to approve. How do I make sure that I'm empowering my team to make those decisions that they absolutely can make on their own? And that's a that's a big conversation that we're having with our leaders today. Because I would say, Well, we haven't always been, like, top down in terms of the strategic alignment. One thing we have been good at is, is having more top down management, where, you know, where our leaders have been truly some of the bottlenecks for work getting done. And so we've really talked about getting, like building the psychological safety, and trust and empowerment of our team to be able to make the decisions that they absolutely can make.
Lee Andrews 9:28
Yeah, I think I agree with everything has been said, I think there's, there's one thing in it for me, if you want real alignment, there's nothing that does that better than creating commonality of goals. Right. So I think if you really want everybody pulling in the same direction, give everybody the same objective, or at least a subset of objectives, and you suddenly quickly see how aligned everybody gets and how much more ruthlessly people start prioritizing. So to everything that you've just said. I think that's one of for me, the key enablers of getting management pulling in the same direction behind a novel star that's really going to incentivize everybody to perform consistent mean?
Maddie Walton 10:00
Yeah, you're right on Lee. In fact, that is, after we did the alignment around what performance expectations were for last year, we set about setting our goals. And it traditionally, we set our goals in February, and then have them all locked into the system in March. This year, we we did, we started that process in February. And honestly, we just locked them in in May. And that's because we did exactly what you said. So right now, not only does my team so I'm part of corporate training, my team's goals aligned to, we have our customer service centers, our goals are the same, because we support them as one of our customers, I work with HR, our goals are the same. And it all lines up across the enterprise. We did a view. In fact, our CEO actually looked at everybody's goals this year to really make sure that they aligned. And so it was it was a challenging process, because we've never done it like this before. But that is, again, that's back to what what's measured batters. That's what our goals are. So now that we're all aligned, it's going to be that much easier to prioritize appropriately. Yeah,
Lee Andrews 11:15
the only the only distinction I'd make is I think I've seen some organization cascade goals really effectively. So we all think we're operating now in service of the top corporate objectives. But strategies do pivot and Objectives can pivot even mid year. So if everybody has goals that are somewhat aligned at the beginning of the year, and then there's a bit of that it can be difficult to realign everybody, if you do have the same, the same shared goal. And that goal changes everybody's on a new path together. So it's just what's the what's the break in having people move to productivity? If if you're shifting everybody's goals versus the same goal for everybody? Yeah,
Maddie Walton 11:52
right. On Monday,
Chris Rainey 11:54
I'm gonna come over to you, because you've been very quiet over there. One of the goals of HR, and it's also responsible for the whole business, but HR kind of leaves away is is nurturing a work environment that supports the growth of our mid level managers. Could you share how you're doing that in the organization? Yes,
Maddie Walton 12:15
actually, it was great to hear from Jennifer, similar stuff happening processors group. And my, you know, my biggest recommendation before jumping in with this solution, figure out what are you really trying to solve? What's the problem? So yes, we want to create that environment where our mid level managers can grow. But for us similar expectations, like what I was hearing from Jennifer, we want them also to grow their teams and grow the business. So once we kind of have that in mind, and we also look to that demographic, we can definitely see there's a drop off and engagement when we think of like our senior leaders and our mid level managers, and particularly around strategy. So a little bit different than the journey from Jennifer's perspective, we actually see that from that senior level, down to the mid level manager, there's a big drop off on how do we achieve this. And the when we've created our leadership program, which also has behaviors that are driving our strategy, so no, no, it's no good when you're seeing some of that alignment across the HR community. We've really built it in this way that we can support the leaders gives them clarity, make it really, you know, crystal clear on what is the expectation, and then wrap those behaviors around the strategy, we actually call the program navigator. So like a compass to help you navigate those situations as a mid level manager. And we've had an organization that we've tried to simplify and give that accountability, take out layers where it was not helpful. But then often, that means that our mid level managers are reporting to very, very senior people that are very strategic and long term. And then they're leading teams that are quite Junior. So the disparity and gap that they need to branch to be successful is, is huge. And so I think that's been a huge, important factor for us in developing this work environment and leadership program, that leaders can grow in and grow their teams and grow the business and and I think the other piece that's been really helpful and listening to the leaders feedback, is keeping the, quote cohorts rather small. That's something I think I can add to, to what Jennifer was speaking about their program is that having those small cohorts, different backgrounds, different functions, markets across the world, then it gives leaders the opportunity to go connect, find support, learn from each other, and then bring it back into their team. And then we've even implemented like accountability buddies, because we've actually had a hard time I would say with those behaviors, taking it from that senior level, and then implementing it down, like trickling that down into the organization. And this has been really effective, because I think, then it comes to like what we were saying people feel like we're all behind the same mission, we're all working in the same direction. And I have a team behind me who I can rely on. I'd love to
Kearney Fulton 15:23
add to that. And this is something that I've I've, I've observed, just being an HR practitioner is that the development and the growth of everyone, let alone them a manager is so personalized, it's so it's so subjective, right, and it's in, it's really hard to just develop the program that will support the entire organization. And so one of the things that we we sometimes struggle with and in we try to support is provide what that's going to look like for the individual. And so we've, you know, we've created assessments to, to really uncover what that what that may be for a specific individual. So it could be assessments, that that would show that, you know, this individual is actually more of a technical leader versus a people manager, right? This is something that is prevalent in any scientific organization, where someone who's really, really good at their technical job has this this leadership position, but in reality, they may not have the, the leadership skill sets to lead a team, right. And if they take the assessment, they they would know that and maybe they don't even want that, that people people leadership position slice, right, so So being able to uncover and define what growth and development looks like, for each individual has become really, really important. Because, you know, there's, there's this old notion of, you know, growth means promotion, upward movement, etcetera, right, but but that's not, that's not going to look the same in the work of the future, or, in fact, work, you know, the work of now. So. So that's a lot of what what we try to support in HR and HR analytics in general,
Lee Andrews 17:22
I think the interesting thing is you could create amazing academies platforms for growth programs, whatever it is you do, you have to try and foster a culture where growth and engagement is celebrated as a seen as a success point. And then you have to create the conditions in an environment where you're creating space for people to indulge themselves in that, because we know is easily the first thing that gets de prioritized. There are some easy ways of doing it. I remember at IBM, we had what was called Think 40, where there was an investment of 40 hours every single year for every employee. And it was far from frowned upon if people use their 40 hours of working to invest in themselves. In fact, we champion people who got to 100 hours, they were seen as super learners, and Haley on every single month, we have a day, which is global meeting day. And that's sort of the space where we say this is a great time to go and network to take that coaching that you haven't been able to find time for just to invest in some development that you need to do. So I think it's how do we create amazing content and amazing programs? How do we create the space for people to take that up? Yeah,
Maddie Walton 18:27
equally to to add on to that, I think, be vigilant in your especially mid level managers experience when it comes to the administration tasks that they're working with? That's something that we have constant. I mean, we're continually trying to reduce the amount of admin type process tasks that are heavy and taking. It's just energy draining. And it's of course, not the kind of value adding work that we wish for them to focus their time with. I love that no meeting. Concept. Yeah, to normalize the no meeting day. I think we should.
Emily Killham 19:09
I love what you said about the individualized growth and development versus but also making it something that works for the full organization. When we talked with managers. We did a study in and about three times as many managers said they would prefer coaching to more training, which to me speaks to that idea of generalized knowledge sharing versus individualized, personalized learning that managers can do. So how can we create like, I'd love to think through how you're creating those individualized coaching programs that exist at scale across an organization because obviously, you can't sit next to every manager all day, but giving them providing them with the right kind of data and feedback from the things you're learning through those assessments through the sentiment of their employees or the sentiment of The there are peers and and leaders to understand what are those hidden potential places? And what are those places where they may overestimate their own skills. And then how to begin to personalize that through those academies Lee, like you were saying where people can feel very personalized in their learning.
Lee Andrews 20:15
Yeah, and with the personalization piece as well. A lot of organizations have seen, create and curate amazing content academies full of learning, self serve, knock yourself out. But actually, there's something where you want to push certain content and a level of discomfort on managers as well, in some of Maddie was talking about cohort Bayes. Some of the best learning programs I've ever been on were the most uncomfortable because I was part of a cohort and it was taken way outside of my comfort zone. But you know, what I grew the most as a result of it. So I think we need to strike the balance of, you know, self serve buffet with here's some real rigor that we need to put you through to help you want to Johnny, and
Emily Killham 20:55
that data through those assessments is going to help us know where best to push people, right, because I may not be aware of the place that I'm going to feel the most discomfort or maybe I'm aware, and that's why I've weighed it. But if my manager if my leaders can help me be aware of the places where I need to lean into discomfort, because the feedback suggests that those are places where I could use some growth, I think are excellent.
Lee Andrews 21:18
That's why some rude, really rudimentary tools like a 360 is great, because half the time it's about just holding up the mirror and saying this is how you're experienced, right? And then how do we bridge some of the gaps with these programs?
Chris Rainey 21:28
It's definitely within those uncomfortable moments that we learn the most, right about each other. But also in those cohorts. There's also an element of oh, I'm not the only one. Not alone, right? Because they sometimes can be pretty lonely, as well, right? Because when you get together with a cohort of other managers, you're like, Ah, it's not just me. It's other people having the same challenge. We can help each other and feel supported. And you have people from different parts departments, different parts of the organization, even people from across the world that you can then also build that network in collaboration with which can lead to innovation and many other elements, as well, that can help the organization had a question in the chat, but for yourself, Emily. So it's very specific, but I'm going to ask you because I've asked it three times. That's it does perceptive, allow for mid level management goal assessment analysis, hopefully, you know more of what that means in me. Sorry,
Emily Killham 22:24
goal assessment analysis is, does for septics
Chris Rainey 22:27
allow for mid level management and goal assessment analysis is a very specific question as well as afraid to use has been asked quite a few times in the chat.
Emily Killham 22:35
I'm not actually sure what what is meant by goal. You know,
we do offer a 360 assessment, we can get into setting the specific goals within our platform or, you know, utilize platforms that people have, what we really will then do is be able to come alongside you with the creation and and helping with some of those coaching bits through, you know, use of AI and and best practice suggestion plans. But
Chris Rainey 23:03
no,
Emily Killham 23:04
I hope I answered that question, because I'm not sure.
Chris Rainey 23:08
Kevin, Kevin, know where I will connect with you as someone in the team is no worries. In terms of on that point, I Emily, in terms of tools and techniques, I could just talk about some of the tools that you're that you're when you're working with mid level managers, some of the tools and techniques that you're using to help empower them for to enhance their productivity, but also allow them to, you know, help innovate within their teams,
Emily Killham 23:34
you know, for me, and this just comes from really the research and analytics background that I live in, I always go to the data first. So for me, one of the most important tools is access to great data. Sometimes what that has created is access to too much great data. And we need to help specifically mid level managers who I think have so many things on their plate already, as we've discussed, hone in on what are the most relevant pieces of data for them, and the ones that they can act on most effectively. So, you know, as we as we lean into using tools like a 360 assessment, understanding sentiment of your teams beginning to crowdsource ideas, and helping to facilitate and teach managers the skills that they need to facilitate with their teams, to hear back that feedback and be able to implement it. That's where it always begins for me, and then we can, you know, open it up to what are the great things that that l&d folks have created out in the world that are going to help us lean into that discomfort and and really push that growth? It's exciting to think about the technology advancements that are going to be able to pick out those pieces of data that have been most impactful for a variety of managers and serve those up more easily than I think, you know, often traditional and more rudimentary. 360 approaches have said here's a big report Read it and figure out what you're supposed to do next. But instead, if we can get better at scale at telling managers what we think they ought to do next, or giving them a couple of choices, I think we're going to be better off. I
Kearney Fulton 25:11
just want to add to that, Emily, I absolutely agree. And, you know, data and analytics is something that I think can really passionate about. But I think, to that end of being able to make, you know, informed decisions on what, what's next, right, what, what is the data telling us to do, connecting that to the action item, right? Being able to communicate to our organization that we are doing this, because we heard you is just as important because there are times when individuals would take the change, and they really wouldn't be able to tie it to the fact that this was the kind of feedback that we're receiving from you, or we're doing this because this is something that that you told us that you want and right and being able to kind of that tie that together is important for, for, for direct reports to understand. And it also allows them to know that we are listening, these these tools there. And this is self assessments are tools for you to provide feedback. And that's one way for us to continuously change the way the way we work. We're listening to you, this is one way for you to provide us with information, how you can innovate faster and better. And so continue to provide us that feedback. Yeah,
Chris Rainey 26:35
I think it's a really important point. There's nothing worse when you see all of these surveys and, and people take the time to give feedback. And then you just don't hear any feedback whatsoever. I'd rather and I think the most successful companies I interview and speak to, they even communicate back what they're not going to do. So there's a, they're really good saying, Hey, we hear you. This is where we're going to prioritize time and energy. And this is kind of what we're doing. But by the way, we are actually not going to do those things, as well. And it creates sort of a level of trust that your voice is actually truly heard. And obviously they do it on a regular basis. through multiple channels. As often it's important, not just one channel, it could be at their town halls, it can be managers doing it in team meetings, or their own team. There's multiple channels that you also have to communicate that for. And when you do deliver on one of those things, also celebrate it as well and create some some marketing and some campaigns are around that it needs to be something that people remember as well. So yes, a really important point you just made. Alright, Libra coming to you next. Sorry,
Maddie Walton 27:48
Ron, because it was, I agree with so much and great information from the whole panel. I also want to say some grassroots non technology tools can be really helpful for supporting with productivity as well, we identified for example, that people felt super overwhelmed with, they knew what the workload was, but they were struggling with prioritization. And that's such a level that, you know, you can't go out and sit with each one of them and help them through that prioritization. So just giving them a simple tool to help organize their workload, have a conversation with their manager, identify, you know, what's the issue here? Is it that I need to reduce the workload, delegate the workload? Or do I need to change something to be come prepared for this workload? That has been really effective, and I mean, it's not you know, anything fancy or bells and whistles, it involves some level of identifying that in our engagement survey, but then executing that was very, you know, old school. So with a with a slide, but other than that, you know, very straightforward. Don't forget to look for the simple, simple fixes as well.
Lee Andrews 28:53
Yeah, I build on that value and say, I agree at the amount of times I've used something as rudimentary as like the Eisenhower matrix. Are you really channeling incoming, you know, tasks and priorities into you know, whether or not you should be focused on now the third and deleting them, or delegating them and just use a simple important versus urgent sort of methodology and the amount of times leaders have come back to me and hammer Gosh, mind blowing, it's, you know, it's not rocket science, but it's a model that somebody can subscribe to and used with great simplicity. So yeah, really effective.
Chris Rainey 29:27
Definitely important. Lee, I was gonna ask you, what are some of the ways that you're helping coach, mid level managers to use the organizational resources they have more effectively, but also better manage their own personal development and leadership? Because we're, it's a tough role like you're you're delivering as a sole contributor, you're leading a team? Where do I have space for Chris? To actually take out my own coaching and own development? Right. We're asking a lot of our managers Yeah,
Lee Andrews 29:59
and it's only good And worse, right? I think there's so much there's so much data out there. But I think Gallup, in their workforce study last year said that 70% of team engagement comes directly from the manager. conflicting studies say that up to nearly 50% of managers are feeling burnt out. So it's clearly everywhere. It's how do we, as I said earlier, create that space for people. I think there's a coaching aspect. And I'll come to that in a second, which was your question. But I think before you even get there, you have to create value in the content and the resources that you're trying to help them adopt. Right. And so often by that what I mean is, the Jennifer was talking very eloquently earlier around strategic alignment and a strategy that Northstar, a lot of organizations that I've seen, who are just pushing content out, as great as it may be, is, it's very fragmented, it's not connected to a strategy, it's not, it's not clear how this is going to help me operate in service of something. So I think being really intentional about what is our leadership philosophy? How does that bring the outside in and sort of merge what's occurring in terms of the evolving requirements of a mid level manager with our own organizational needs? And what are we trying to solve for as an organization? Some it may be speed and agility, some organizations through leadership might want to unlock unlock creativity or innovation. So create your leadership standards, your principles, or whatever your framework is for that and ensure that people understand when we're trying to coach them, or have them adopt certain things, how does it align to that in the first place. And I think the final piece about creating meaningful content and resources is having them co created to some degree with you. We've spoken about great assessments and great programs, often we hear the need, we build something and then we expect people to take it out. And actually, there's a big step in between of ensuring that they come on that journey and CO create an input and test with us before we just go and deploy something and expect everybody to take it up. But I think in terms of coaching, we've already spoken about the importance of data and analytics, I think just really talking to some of the numbers can make a really big difference in getting people taking up some of these resources, these initiatives and buying him. I think as well, just the importance of you know, helping people helping mid level managers understand the impact that some of these resources would have for their teams really will help them lean in, you know, if I think about, we talked about something earlier, simple graph data. But if we apply that to a real life case study of salary, salary cycles are a really big thing to manage with teams, and they can create great discontent, as well as great opportunity for people just plugging in some logical data that incorporates performance metrics, and past pay rises, and inflation, everything else is so much more of a meaningful viewpoint for a manager now to take, but often they're sort of flying blind in those sorts of sort of circumstances. So where do we not overload with data? Where do we create great data and just even a few instances, that's going to help somebody make a better decision or a better impact on their teams. And I'd say there's a lot that we need to do to focus on unlocking collaboration. So if you look at a lot of the statistics around even sentiment in job descriptions, I think the words around collaboration have crept up 30% In the last decade, whereas things like supervisory and control, you know, the these terminologies are reducing by a quarter over the last decade in parallel. So how do we make sure that we're bringing that into what we're trying to teach and get from our leaders who aren't, you know, largely now managing distributed workforces a lot more than we would have in the past? So yeah, I think I think there's a lot that we can do. My most powerful one that I love is just running retrospectives, I think in terms of coaching, one to one with with managers is role playing replaying scenarios that they've encountered, you know, trying to bring in some empathy, some understanding, and then just really creating an action plan based off of that as to how that scenario might be played out differently in the future.
Chris Rainey 33:49
You mentioned in there something I want to double check on, you mentioned burnout. And you which is a big issue. Kenny, I would love to hear from you in terms of like, how are you helping your mid level managers manage their stress? And I know it's a bit it's one we don't talk about enough. You know, it's interesting, as a leader, I'm kind of responsible for, in some ways of the well being of my team, whilst trying to take care of my own personal well being at the same time, that's something that I think we saw in the pandemic, which was something that came up and it was almost a silver lining in a strange way of shining the spotlight on well being during that time, but I don't see us. I feel like we're reversing a little bit back to our old ways, if anything is getting worse if what I'm seeing as well.
Kearney Fulton 34:42
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. And, and that I do keep saying that. That was one of the silver linings of the pandemic, if there was anything that we learned from 2020 was, you know, was was the fact that it finally sheds a light on the fact that we are all overworked and we're all burns out. But but in terms of in terms of how we can help our managers deal with stress it, I would use the same messages that the panel has mentioned already. So first, when I would say prioritization, there is never enough time in the day to do everything that we want to do. And so we need to be able to take the list of to dues and be able to prioritize and understand what is going to make the most impact for our organization and what is not going to make as much impact and put that in the backlog. And it doesn't feel comfortable putting things in the backlog and saying no to our stakeholders, but it's going to have to be something that we learn how to do. And to that end, as well. The second thing is communication. Right? Once we know what those priorities are, we need to cascade it down. Because our people learn from what they see in our managers. And personally, I have a problem with work life balance, but I never have an issue telling my my, my team to disconnect whenever they go on vacation. But whenever they get an email from me on a weekend, you better believe somebody, my team is going to look at that, right. And that's not a great, that's kind of hypocritical of me. So so it doesn't, it doesn't send the right message. And so being able to communicate and act, the way that your preaching is so important, and and being able to communicate what your expectations are is just as important. And then the third one is really setting that boundaries. I have been in a company, a really a really great company that that has these annual, you know, goal building strategy building, season, and part of what they started doing during the pandemic, is not only will they talk to their, to their organization, about their priorities and what they want to accomplish for the year, but they also talk about what they're not going to do. So to your point earlier, Chris there and t, what they call it oh GSM and oh GSM start, it stands for like organizational, something something strategy or something I can't even remember it was a while back. But anyway, what essentially, what it's essentially stands for is that it's it's the list of things that are not as important for the organization. So if an individual were to have conflicting tasks, they can then be able to feel comfortable not to do a task, because they know it's something from the top, that it's not a priority for the organization, right? It's that permission that all of us are looking for. But instead of us feeling like we can't say no to to our stakeholders, it's our leaders telling us we're not going to do it. And that's the overarching and Umbrella permission that we need to say no to a task that we feel like we have to do. So so that so those those I think is going those three things I think are going to be critical in helping us really establish that, that work life balance, but again, it's something that I'm still learning. So if you guys have any other tips for me, I'm all ears.
Lee Andrews 38:31
I just think there's something in micro actions to consistency and volume of the small moments that make an impact. Last night, I had a call with one of my team members and a few of our clients and it was 530, we wrapped up the call and I said instantly quit debrief. And the response I got back was actually I'm tired in a long day, I'm gonna go play football with my two boys. I thought what a great response, that's a win. I'll chalk that up as a willing to have the comfort and the confidence in our culture to be able to do that. And I think that's not a me thing. That's our organization day in day out gives people permission to live there and put their lives first, not just live them, but put them first. And that takes everybody in your organization to build a culture.
Maddie Walton 39:15
I would like right on that comment as well, in teaching people and instilling a culture where people, people feel comfortable to deliver clear kind feedback. I think I know that's kind of far off. But it helps, especially at those lower levels as you go down into an organization that people do feel empowered to say something like I'm actually going to go kick the soccer ball around versus Yeah, of course you're my manager. I'm going to stay on longer or if you see the the bubble on on the weekend, and your team member reaches out to you and says Hey, what are you doing online? Like I love seeing things like that. I think it shows that you have a culture a speak up culture that people feel safe that way. We're also
Lee Andrews 40:02
talking about things that individuals can do to create that balance for themselves. I think organizational in particularly as a HR function, we push a lot out to organizations, there is something that we can do to really meet with managers where they're at, right? So much, you know, something basic. We want to create some learning content, we'll go and pull together three hours worth of incredible content. And then you have to sit now and do you know, this learning for something that you may do once this year? And actually none of the rest of it applicable until next year? Well, let's go and find a way to nudge and prompt in the moments that are getting the help they need as and when they need it. And that we're not burning them, trying to make them have that prioritization discussion internally, about something that really isn't a priority for them.
Chris Rainey 40:44
Yeah, that happens a lot. I think everyone can relate to that one. Now, just thinking about your last comment, by the way, I had this conversation recently with the team I was talking about well, being and de fruit, they said does like same thing. You said, Well, you don't do it, Chris. Alright, so here, I'm here like encouraging the team, to take their heart to take their holidays to not do cause that late at night, etc. And I'm like, I need you. We need to be examples of that. As Oh, and I had a situation this week where there was an 8pm call on my calendar. And I was like, No, I want to be there for bedtime. Like, I want to read a book The robin tonight. I don't want to be doing calls. And yes, it's an important call. But is it really? Can it really wait? Does it really has to be done tonight? No, it doesn't. So we have to be super intentional about making those things happen. And like carving those those moments out. So I'm like blocking my diary of orders times, and making sure that you kind of need to create a system around those things. Otherwise, it won't just happen itself, especially when we have distributed teams, it's even more difficult to make that happen when people are in different time zones, etc. It can be an even if you think you're that person that says well, it says in my email signature that you don't have to get back to me. They're still going to open it on the Saturday, you're fooling yourself. If you think that a little, little thing at the end of your email, let's get stuck, one of your employees are opening it and working a few hours on a Sunday, as well. So we have to be really intentional about all of those things. I'm glad we added this part to the conversation because I think it's super important. as well. I mean, it's hard, we got a wrap up. I knew we wouldn't get through all of the questions, as well. But before I let everyone go, we covered a lot during the conversation. And just wanted to ask everyone, what would be your sort of parting piece of advice? And then we'll say goodbye, Emily, I'm gonna pick on you first.
Emily Killham 42:41
Yeah, I think for me, it it still comes back to how do we prioritize and prioritize using information that we have, which in many cases is data so use that data to help create those priorities for your managers development.
Chris Rainey 42:57
Love it super concise. Lee?
Lee Andrews 42:59
Not not something that we spoke about a lot. But I'd say focus on coaching around trust. I think that is the bedrock for everything, everything. We're asking people to lean into develop themselves everything else. Find some find a model that works really well for you organizationally, and really focus on amplifying trust and enablement around trust with leaders.
Chris Rainey 43:18
Love it, love it better. But
Maddie Walton 43:22
I'm going to click in on something we said, we got a lot of our leaders involved in helping create the content for leaders. And that made a big difference natural champions, and there was something having that content come from somebody who lives it breathes it every day. And not just me. Which Yes, I tried to live it breathe it too. But it just went so much further. So that I really loved that idea. And I'm gonna keep doing that. Yeah.
Chris Rainey 43:50
Maddie.
Maddie Walton 43:53
Yeah, I would actually have said, similarly, create communities, for your mid level managers. They're tired, make sure that they have good connections within the organization. And actually something that we spoke about a lot, cut the noise out for them, think about their experience, allow them the space to focus on the things that matter. And then it's great if you then have that data to back it up. But it creates that work environment and container where they can actually focus in find space for the value driving activity.
Chris Rainey 44:24
Not that last one, not least Kearney.
Kearney Fulton 44:28
Yeah, and this is something we've we've talked about, but really, really sitting down and understanding our priorities. What we will do and what we won't do is just as important because I think if we get a handle on what those are, and we're able to communicate that and cascade that to our organization, we're a better organization for it. It'll, it'll, it'll be a good task, not just for our mid level managers, but for everyone in our team. It'll help with stress with burnout with the You know, every every every, you know, concept of wellbeing that you can think of so so my encouragement is to really just go through your priorities, understand what you want to do for the upcoming year and be be intentional about talking about what you won't do, as is just as important.
Chris Rainey 45:21
Love that. Love that. Well, that's a wrap everyone. Thanks so much for everyone who just tuned in from all over the world. A big thank you to all of our panelists for sharing their experience and joining us, as well. Especially thank you to our friends at perceptive for helping us bring his power together, directly beneath this video, there's a giant huge button right in front of you, if you click on that you actually can download their guide for management behaviors, which is very relevant to what we just talked about, as well. So make sure to take a second to download that great research and insights there. Also, as many of you know, three weeks ago, we actually launched the world's first AI copilot for HR. And one of the goals of that is to help leaders and managers get instant answers to their questions. So for example, you'll be able to actually ask questions using the copilot to vest exact panel to get the answer that you need using the co pilot one of our goals was it's great that we have all of this information and we've discussed this actually during the panel. But how do we get the answers that we need that meet us where we at where we are in the flow of work. So if you click the link in the chat, you can start using that for free. So go ahead and do that. Apart from that wherever you are in the world. Thank you for joining joining us and we wish you all the best until next week. Thank you everyone. Bye bye
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