How to Design a Career-Led Culture Like L’Oréal
In this episode of the HR Leaders Podcast, we speak with Emily Chiverton, HR Director for the UK & Ireland at L'Oréal, about building purpose-led careers and nurturing future leaders through structured development.
Emily shares her own journey through L’Oréal’s early careers program, the power of career mobility, and how initiatives like Brandstorm help young people discover their path. The conversation explores why HR’s biggest role isn’t managing talent, it’s helping people build meaningful, fulfilling careers from day one.
🎓 In this episode, Emily discusses:
How L’Oréal designs career paths with long-term development in mind
Why aligning personal passions with work leads to greater career fulfillment
Why the ‘climbing frame’ beats the career ladder in today’s talent landscape
Brandstorm’s global reach and its power as a career exploration and recruitment tool
The structure and impact of L’Oréal’s management training and early careers programs
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Emily Chiverton 0:00
One of the things that we're good at doing is helping people stand back and say, in a long term view, where do you project yourself? Where do you see yourself? Where do you have the ambition to be? Where do you want to be? What skills do you have? Everyone's got that spark, you know, of passion that got them into whatever function they went into in the first place. If we all followed that spark, it would lead us somewhere. How do you get people to where they're supposed to be? Because if you get people to where they're supposed to be and try and get them to marry what they're doing every day with what their personal sense of purpose is, then they're going to be more successful. They're going to have better outcomes. They're going to be more likely to progress in the way that careers are changing and job roles are changing. How do we help people navigate that by clarifying what career options are possible. There isn't a right answer when it comes to careers. So how do you help people navigate that complexity and build the leaders of the future? I
Emily Chiverton 1:00
Hey, Emily, welcome to the show. How are you? Thank you. Great to be here. I'm great. Thank you. And just
Chris Rainey 1:14
for everyone listening, we chose the hottest day in the UK. Yeah,
Emily Chiverton 1:17
it's great to be here on the hottest day of the year. Little bead of sweat coming
Chris Rainey 1:20
you see us slowly, like melting throughout the episode. Just despair with us. Have we only just met? By the way, I don't know. How is that I was like, you've know everyone. I've met everyone in the team. At this point,
Emily Chiverton 1:31
I'm wondering that I've been kicking around HR for 20
Chris Rainey 1:34
years. How have you been at L'Oreal? Well, it's an
Emily Chiverton 1:37
interesting story, because I started my career at Lolita L'Oreal 21 years ago, whoa, so, yeah, many moons ago as an intern and then a management trainee. But I haven't spent all of my career at L'Oreal, just most of it. I spent about six years at the start, mostly in the team that I now lead, and then I left and I came back, Boomerang. I'm a boomerang. Yeah.
Chris Rainey 1:59
What was the period between the boomerang nine years a nine
Emily Chiverton 2:03
year. Yeah, that's the
Chris Rainey 2:05
longest boomerang.
Emily Chiverton 2:07
But I always kept a really great memory of this company where I'd started my career, and I'd learned so much about how to operate, how business worked, and it was great. It made me realize how important cultural fit is, because I had a good cultural fit, L'Oreal, yeah, and when I came back nine years later, you know, lots of things had changed, but I really felt immediately like a fish in water. You know, in the culture, it
Chris Rainey 2:31
was still maintained throughout nine years. Wow, that's really interesting, because culture is obviously constantly evolving, but the fact that you felt that sense of belonging, yeah, straight away. Wow, did you? Did you choose HR, or did it choose you?
Emily Chiverton 2:45
Um, I, I'm gonna say I chose HR. I know you.
Chris Rainey 2:51
Oh, my God, you're one note that on the board. That's that
Emily Chiverton 2:55
one most people, uh, fall into HR. I'm gonna say that I chose HR because I did an internship in HR at the start of my career. And then,
Chris Rainey 3:03
how did that happen? Well, how do you end up in the HR internship?
Emily Chiverton 3:07
I was interested in behavior. Okay, I was interested in behavior. That was that was it. I had a hunch that I was interested in behavior. I'd chosen at some early stage in my life to do site to study psychology at a level. My parents were into sociology, my dad's a preference is all making sense now. And so there was early influences. But really I love my passion in life was languages, and I did French and Spanish at uni, and I knew I wanted to marry that to something, and I knew probably business would be a good way. But it comes back to this point that I have a real passion, point in my life and my career, about the fact that I think that young people don't have enough help and support in this area of finding what it is that they should be doing in their lives.
Chris Rainey 3:51
I mean, yeah, we could do a whole show about it. We could do a whole show series,
Emily Chiverton 3:56
yeah, but in my case, it was a hunch about people. And I did, AI did a master's in business. And while I was doing the Masters in Business, it was really the modules around people that was most interested in. And then, so as to test out the theory, I did an internship in HR. And actually, then a spanner came into the works, because our, our CHRO, at the time, said to me, You know what you need to go into the business now, that's what you should do. Interesting. And so and he offered me a place on the management training scheme in London. I was living in Paris. At this time, I was doing an internship in Paris, and he said to me, you know, you're clearly lost. You're a British girl. You need to go back to the UK, start your career in your home country, learn the market, learn the customer, and then come back and then come back and launch an international career when you've got when you've got something to bring. And so I went, and I did you feel though, when, when I didn't want to go, I didn't want to go, but it was, it felt like a golden ticket opportunity, and it was, it absolutely was. And I went and did the management training scheme in the business. I did three different rotations around marketing, digital type. Functions, and it was amazing. And actually still, now, many years, years later, our HR management training trainees rotate in the business. They don't rotate in HR, because I really strongly believe that was the best place for me to start, and that's the best grounding that I could have had as an HR person to go and see what, see what life's like on the other side. So I'm really, really glad that I did it, but it's an example of, I think the way that L'Oreal does careers is, you know, the role of the HR person is very, very centered on careers and Talent Management. And how can you get people to stand back and look at their career in a long term way and build something, yeah, and that's what good HR looks like to me. Well,
Chris Rainey 5:39
that makes sense, because most people that I've your colleagues I spoke to, I've been with the business for a long time, yeah, and that's becoming less and less common, yeah, but I still see that at L'Oreal Yeah, like you. And is that part of what you're referring to, and making sure people have the opportunity? That's right, experience,
Emily Chiverton 5:59
that's right. And I think that one of the things that we've that we're good at doing, is helping people stand back and say, in a long term view, where do you project yourself? Where do you see yourself? Where do you have the ambition to be? Where do you want to be? And it comes back to this point about what skills do you have? What are your everyone's got that spark, you know, of passion that got them into whatever function they went into in the first place. And you know, one of the things that I'm fond of saying is, if we all followed that spark, it would lead us somewhere. And I think that's one of the things that we try to do is kind of, how do you get people to where they're supposed to be? Because if you get people to where they're supposed to be and try and get them to marry what they're doing every day with what their personal sense of purpose is then they're going to be more successful, they're going to have better outcomes, they're going to be more likely to to progress. And so yeah, so I think that's one of the things we're quite successful at doing, is helping people move to broaden and also in the in the way that careers are changing and job roles are changing. It used to be very simple. We had marketing, sales, you know, finance, the classic functions. Now you've got all the all the new functions of digital, e commerce, but even within that, sub families of specialist technical jobs that are new and the role of marketing, which is our kind of lead career at L'Oreal, has fundamentally changed versus 10 or 15 years ago. And so how do we help people navigate that by clarifying what, what a career looks like, what, what a what career options are possible. Because the other thing is, there isn't a right answer when it comes to careers. So how do you help people navigate that complexity and and build, yeah, the leaders of the
Chris Rainey 7:38
future. I think whenever I get that question from friends, like, what should I do? Or, like, where should I go? My normal year, my response is, like, just taste as many things as possible. Because I definitely didn't think I'll be doing this. We were joking about it before we hit record, and no one understands what that I do is, but I kind of just was open just to failing forward and like just tasting as many things as possible a young age, not saying you can't do that an old age, by the way, but it's kind of easy when you're younger, when you have less responsibilities and commitments just to try. But so within L'Oreal, how do you practically do what you're describing?
Emily Chiverton 8:17
I think it's just about standing back with the person you know? And that's what leaders have done with me, is sort of stand back and say, Where do you want to go? And if you identify not just the next job that you're going to do, but the one after that interesting, and you stand back and say, Okay, what am I lacking? What am I missing? What skills don't I have? And really having that mindset of skills, because I think sometimes the trap people fall into is around thinking about external factors, like, what's my job title going to be, and am I going to be progressing? Am I going to be seen to be progressing? And actually, what we try and and explain to people is that that's that's an indicator, but it's not the main the main thing, the main thing is what you're learning. So what skills are you acquiring? And what skills are you are you missing? And it could be, you know, learning or development, but equally, could be going and doing an experience that's totally adjacent to what all your background and your expertise is, you know, you could take, take a step into another function, or go and lead a transformation project, or, you know, do something quite different that stretches you in a different way. And this goes to my point about doing difficult things. You know, try to really lean into doing difficult things. I think that as people, we intuitively avoid difficult things. And I say that because I see it in my kids. They say, Mommy, it's hard. 100% I don't want to do this. And I'm like, that's why you need to do it. Yeah, exactly, because in the things, in the basket of things that you experience when something's hard, there is growth and learning and development alongside all the things that cause friction and feel maybe a little bit less, yeah, comfortable. I
Chris Rainey 9:53
mean, that's where the biggest progress happened. I mean, you mentioned kids, like my daughter's doing jiu jitsu at the moment, she's six, by the way, she. She doing it for like, couple of years, and she used to cry, want to go home. I don't want to go back, right? You. Just, is pretty rough, right? And the other day just made me laugh. Where she there was a new girl that just joined Robin's been, now been doing jujitsu for like, three years, and then she was like, Daddy, remember when I used to be like that, crying? Yeah, the girl came over crying. She's, I used to be like that. And then she said, kind of smile, she's proud of herself that she didn't give up and she stuck with it, yeah? And I was like, that's why we kept coming back right like then. And the growth you can if you can see the resilience and growth in her, that when she's things are not going well, she's like,
Emily Chiverton 10:35
this is okay, yeah. And you have to remember that satisfaction you're gonna have exactly after, after, yeah, not at the time, but
Chris Rainey 10:41
after, also not even just off, but the journey, yeah, for me, like, it's like, I love entrepreneurship, probably the ultimate version of throwing yourself into the deep end, because you're having to learn everything. And for me, it's like that constant growth for learning, and that's what you're providing for employees, right? You're constantly putting in new roles, new positions to grow, develop, challenge themselves, right? Even when it's hard, we all know we come out on the other end and go, Wow, that was really worth it, right? It doesn't feel like it sometimes at the time, and that's probably one of the reasons why you've retained, you're retaining talent so long in the organization.
Emily Chiverton 11:16
Yeah, I think, I think it's a very effective retention strategy, actually, and I and I think that it's very strategic. I don't think that all companies are taking that long term view with careers, but it's really in the DNA of L'Oreal. And people often ask me why I came back to L'Oreal, and there's lots of reasons, actually, but may the number one reason was because I knew that I was coming back for a career, because it would be coming back to not just the job that I came back to, but the one after and the one after. And
Chris Rainey 11:43
indeed, so you're already thinking that, you know that that's just the one after the one off, because that's part of the DNA.
Emily Chiverton 11:49
It's just part of the way it works. So, and I was always very ambitious and kind of agitating for the next thing. And for some people
Chris Rainey 11:56
struggle with that low because I can think like because you you're very much in the mindset of talent exporters than talent hoarders, right? So that must be quite a change for a lot of leaders and managers where they're in organizations where they perhaps they in the past, they kind of not used to their team moving on. Yeah? Well,
Emily Chiverton 12:17
what goes around comes around, you know? So if you can develop great people and send them then, you know, the the other parts of the business will be doing the same thing. But it's not always easy, because it's, it's, it's human nature what to want to hold, but that's why the whole HR lifecycle has to work in in a symbiotic way. And, yeah,
Chris Rainey 12:36
yeah, is it? Is it I'm seeing even with people I'm interviewing now that the newer generation are almost demanding this, like they're coming in wanting to grow develop very quickly. Yeah, right. And they're not waiting to be tapped on the shoulder. They're tapping me on the shoulder, and I'm loving it, by the way. But um, are you seeing that as well?
Emily Chiverton 12:58
I think so. I think that one of the things that we have, we are good at fits well with and actually, I don't necessarily know that it's a new thing, but that young people coming into the workforce don't know necessarily where they belong. They might have a really strong conviction, they might be really sure that they belong in X, and they might be right, but I think a lot of people coming in just don't really know. And I think that's not new. That's always been the case. That's always been the case. And we have a management training scheme where we rotate people around the business, and very often during that process, people exactly the same thing that happened to me when I was on the management training scheme in marketing, I realized through the through the rotations, that I was more interested in who was getting what job and why people wanted to go and work in that team for that team, for that leader. What was it about that leader that made everyone want to go there, versus what made everyone want to buy this product, or what, what's the what's going to be the name or the packaging or the claim on this product? It was, it was interesting, but I was more interested in the people side. Yeah, and that can happen, you know, it's happened recently, actually, that this a similar thing. Someone was on the commercial stream. I've just brought him into the HR team to be in early careers, and now he's, he's running the recruitment of the grad scheme and living his best life. So you have that satisfaction of being able to make those things possible for people. Yeah,
Chris Rainey 14:12
you spoke before about planful. You explained that for everyone planful, yeah, because you mentioned how plan for L'Oreal was is in career development. Oh,
Emily Chiverton 14:22
yeah. So it's this point. It's this point about long term career development. So stepping back and saying, you know, where do we see that person in the long term?
Chris Rainey 14:30
How old are you having that conversation? Oh,
Emily Chiverton 14:33
I mean, very early with the line manager. So we train line managers to be having those conversations, or,
Chris Rainey 14:38
yeah, from day one, from the start, yeah, yeah, wow. So really, that's kind of what then become part of the culture, because it's kind of, and they've all probably experienced
Emily Chiverton 14:47
that themselves, yeah, at the same time, I think that particularly young people want to, to your point, move very quickly. And I think sometimes it's we have to instill the notion that job mastery is also really important. So there's no point in balance. Straight to another job before you've really got to grips with this one and understood how to do it and do it well, you're not doing yourself a service by moving too quickly through jobs. So there's a balance there to be had. But yeah, but yeah, it's always with that long term kind of you know, we call it our early career program in French. It's called piping AI, which means the seed like a seedling. Of course, it does your plan. I love it, literally planting seeds. And an amazing anecdote is that I when I was at L'Oreal the first time I was in charge of early careers, and I hired lots of interns and grads, and I came back 12 years later, and those interns and grads were now running the place. Wow. So people I hired earlier, when then general managers and directors in the business. So it's a
Chris Rainey 15:44
hugely satisfying how that make you feel when you see that? Oh, just so
Emily Chiverton 15:48
proud. I'm just, like, a proud mum, almost.
Chris Rainey 15:54
That must be really, really an interesting dynamic to see that as well. Like, for me, that, like, that's probably one of the best things in my last job, like seeing my team grow and develop and move on. You know, even one of my team members actually equipped my team one time and said, I'm going to start my own company. And I remember being like, what, you've only been here for, like, six months, I'm going to go out and build my own events business. And he did, and he was very successful, and I was so proud that he just went and just took that vision and just executed on that, and then, like, a lot of the other leaders were furious. And I was like, why are you upset? Like, this person's given, you know, couple, you know, actually, it was more than that. It's maybe, like, a year and a half to this organization worked extremely hard. We should be super excited and happy for that person's success, yeah, as well. But they weren't whatsoever. And I was, like, really excited for him, you know, to be able to do that. There's nothing more gratifying than seeing someone grow and develop, right
Emily Chiverton 16:49
on a human level, helping somebody meet their potential, whatever that is. Yeah,
Chris Rainey 16:53
I mean, he interesting story about that, that individual is that he came to my team after being on five different sales teams and not having much success. My manager Annie, if you're out there, she was incredible. She's like, I feel like there's something here, Chris, but we just not. We're not. We're struggling to unlock it. You know, he has the highest call rates, KPIs, dials, pitches, something's something disconnecting, like and, you know, want to give him one more chance. Would you be happy to him to join your sales team? I was like, looking at the numbers, and I was like, I've never seen numbers like this, where, what, why is it not converting to sales, right? So I sit down with this individual, and I was like, just tell me. Like, give walk me through your experience. You know what's happening everything. And then I asked him, how's everything outside of the business, right? And no one had asked him that question. And what I found out that is that he had come here from Israel. He was ex military with his girlfriend, and she had just left and gone home. So he was really struggling, and that meant that on the call, he didn't have the confidence to ask for the deal. He was doing everything perfect up until that, and yet, because he just had a knock on his confidence, he was struggling, right? So I wrote him a specific script that was designed around him, and it was very like, I was like, just read this and do not go off of it. Put your feelings to one side, which sounds kind of crazy, but sometimes you can sales people can attach themselves emotionally to a client, and that's kind of where you're struggling. That's the guy who became the most successful sales person in the whole organization, really, within months, and within a year and a half, he quit and and, and built his own business, yeah? And sold that business to Gartner. Yeah, right. This is someone that was about to let go of but no one had took the opportunity to be like, how are you? Like? That was the that was the magic, yeah, how are you and just actually having a human conversation to find out
Emily Chiverton 18:57
and unlocking whatever that thing that is that block. But you also needed
Chris Rainey 19:01
someone to believe in Him, yeah, is that, you know, like I could tell, like he never felt like someone believed in him, and I stayed behind. We did practice pitches, you know, we basically, I was there. Was like, whatever you need, let's just just make this work. And I think because I gave him that, and he was like, wow, this person believes in me, he went above and beyond, right as well. And sometimes that's all it takes, you know, for someone to believe in you and give you that sort of guidance along the
Emily Chiverton 19:31
way. Absolutely, the role of a manager as that coach and helping some. Because I think it comes back to a very human thing at the end of the day, we're human beings in work. And you know, we have our passions, our interests, our skills, what we're good at, what we're intuitively good at. And I remember, I can't remember where I came across this now, but it stayed with me, really. And I think about about it often. Somebody said to me that when you're 15 is the purest version of your in. Interests and passions in life. If you go back to what you were doing when you were 15, and you, you know, remember those things, those will still be the things that that will interest you. If you've lost track of them, go back to them. And I really did that at a later stage in life. I was really when I was 15, I was really interested in gymnastics, and I was I was really interested in music, and I let both of those thing go, things go by the wayside, and I came back to them later in life. But I find that really powerful, because it's kind of what you're saying is tapping into, what is it that's that makes you tick basically, or what is it that's stopping you, if you go back to basics and really put everything on the table and say, what is it that I what I'm what am I about as a human Yeah, and how can I bring that back into work? Every day we
Chris Rainey 20:43
lose that, don't we? Like I, like my friend was laughing at me this weekend because he saw a video of me rollerblading with my daughter and my wife. And what is that you having a midlife crisis? Chris, that rollerblading and I was like, no, like, revisiting the things that I love I told you before we grew up playing ice hockey and roller blade in roller hockey. And my now, I'm, like, something we can do as a family. You'll find us at the skate park skateboarding. You know, I'm basically, like, kind of, obviously, I grew up as a dancer, so me and my we just downloaded just dance 2025, and with me and Robin are going in learning all the rooms. But like, I found, like, it's just brought, like, a level of joy, yeah? Joy. That's exactly the right word. And you get lost in the moment, yeah? Like, with all the stress of work and everything going on, like, I can tell you, when I'm with Robin and my wife, in those moments, I'm not thinking about work. It's kind of my meditation and my escape from the stress as well. And I don't know why, but everyone does that, like when we get into our careers, we just throw all of that to one side, yeah. And we just all of the passions and the things that we enjoyed that for some reason we can't have both Yeah, and we just accept it
Emily Chiverton 21:53
Well, yeah. And if, how many people do you think love what they do? You, Chris, are someone who loves what you do? Yeah? You can see, well, you told me, but also you can tell because it radiates off you. But how many people are in that situation where they love what they do every day? Not many, probably not that many. But how many people are in a situation where they could find a way to bring what they love into their work a bit more and it's like a marginal gain, it's a little bit more enjoyable. And if you look at your day and you think there's a meeting in your diary, and you think, Oh, not that one. Or equally, you look at something and you go, Oh, yeah, that's going to be cool. Like, pay attention to that. Yeah. And a good example would be, you know, someone who enjoys, like I was saying about watching people grow and develop, and then at work, they become a manager of people, so they get the opportunity to watch people grow and develop in their team. But then they're paying attention to the fact that they're getting enjoyment out of that. Maybe then they go outside of work and read some books about management and learn some leadership strategies or some managerial tactics, and then they bring them to work, and they still find that really interesting. And so they then follow the thread of where that leads them, and then they become quite expert in that. And actually that leads to them having more enjoyment and more success in their job. And it's, I think, that there's something in that, you know, that all of us can tap into that thing that got us where, into where we are, and just pull on it a little bit to try and see where it see if we can bring it back more into our lives, to bring that kind of more sense of purpose, sense of enjoyment in what we
Chris Rainey 23:26
do. Yeah, I was very, very lucky to go to a kind of leading with purpose, kind of workshop years back, a guy called Nick Craig. He wrote a book called leading with purpose, worked with many organizations around connecting work with purpose. And I was invited along. I was thinking, I remember at the time Shane and I were just starting to come I was like, it's kind of like, very soft. I know time for this is gonna be wasting my time for most impactful day of or two days of our careers, because we walked away from that. You kind of go through some tough conversations. Kind of one was like your crucible story, so connecting some of the toughest moments in your life with your purpose. And one of the interesting things that came out of that is I realized that I was living my purpose and what I loved as a kid at HR leaders here without even knowing So, for example, when I was younger, part of my escape from sort of the drugs and alcohol and domestic violence in the house was art. So I would draw, paint, sculpt, and even though stuff was happening, I would just get lost right in that moment. And in many ways, which is what lilies in the room helped me discover. It's what I do here at HR leaders, I create. I create so and that's where I get my energy. Yeah, it's coming of new ideas. Poor Shane has to execute on them, sorry, Shane, and keep and keep us grounded, but that's what I do. It's just a different medium, yeah, but
Emily Chiverton 24:51
it's a really good example of what I was saying. If you that thing that you enjoyed when you were young, coming back to it and finding a way to bring to get the get the joy when you're older, yeah.
Chris Rainey 25:00
Most people I speak to, though, and what I don't know, what you'd say to them, is they just say, Well, I just can't do that, right? I just kind of just, they just accept that this is what it is. And I kind of trying to explain that, you know, have you even tried? And most of the time, the answer is no, so that's the first thing. And they're like, oh, no, I can't and I why. And if you keep asking the why, it's like my daughter asking me to why. Sometimes I don't know the answer to the why as well. But what do you think holding people back from that? Because most people feel like they never will find that, and that's almost like a dream. Yeah. I mean,
Emily Chiverton 25:35
it could be anything. Couldn't it could be fear of failure. It could be fear of change. It could be their time poor, you know, with busy job, family commitments. You know, there's lots of reasons why not, but I think there comes, and also there comes a point where you're so dissatisfied in your job that you're sort of forced to a burning platform, and you have to make a change. You see that happen, but more often it's kind of just something that's burning in the back of someone's mind. You know, it's not important enough for them to really feel like they need to act on it now. And sometimes it takes an intervention, like, you know, going on a really great leaderships course, or working with a coach, or just taking a moment of, kind of, you know, reflection, to say, actually, what am I trying to do here? Let me just sit and make a list of the of, you know, what's meaningful to me, what my values? That's a great exercise that you can do for free. Is just sit and kind of brainstorm on a paper, what my value I stand for? What am I all about?
Chris Rainey 26:28
I wish I had this piece of paper that me and Shane had one day. So as part of the work I was doing, I was sharing. I always share different content with the team, things, videos I find interesting, and Ted Talks, for example. And I remember watching the Simon cynics start with why TED talk with the Golden Circle, right? And that changed everything for me. And I know everyone listens. Heard this before, but I'll show it for those who knew, because for the first time, I asked myself the question, what is your why? And I couldn't answer it. And it really concerned me that had been in this job for over 10 years, and I couldn't articulate my why, beyond making loads of money, right? Because that was the motivation growing up really poor, is I need to make as much money. And I just couldn't get out of my brain. And Shane and I went to lunch, and we wrote on a piece of paper all the reasons that we should stay in the company and all the reasons we should leave, basically that was like, literally, Starbucks conversation, and the reason the list to leave was a lot longer, yeah, the reasons that, but that list also came with a lot of fear, anxiety. You know, what's my wife gonna think, if, when I quit my job, what's her parents gonna think? Well, my friends gonna think, what if we fail? You know, so you have, yes, it was a longer list, but all of the fear and anxiety attach to that. But what unlocked it for me is I listened to a podcast which inspired this podcast called entrepreneurs on fire. I listened to 2000 episodes, hour each, over a 10 year period. Right at the end of every single episode, the host us the entrepreneur, what was the number one thing that was holding you back from starting your company? And every single answer was just a fear of failure. So I heard that so long, so many times that. And I was like, here's all these exceptionally you know, they didn't all make it, but the ones were on the show were quite successful, but they all I was like, Wow, you're a billionaire now, but you also had the same fear as me. And that's kind of when we took the leap to say, if we wait until we're not scared, we will never, ever move. And from then, I've always lived like that. In fact, something scares me. Run towards it. It doesn't feel good, but at the end of it, it will make you grow in ways that you never understand. Do
Emily Chiverton 28:52
hard stuff, do hard stuff, but human beings don't change well in times of stress. So you know, if you're stressed and worried and nervous and scared about something. It's not, it's not the best basis to make a change. It's much, you're much more likely to have a successful outcome if you're focusing on a positive what, like the why? Coming back to that, connecting it to I, you know, you're more likely to succeed at a diet. If you think about I, you know, I'm going to have a successful outcome, rather than I'm trying to do this because I don't want to have an unsuccess. You're more likely to move towards a positive why than away from a negative one. And that's an important thing to understand about motivation. And you know how you're going to get yourself that motivation to make the change that you want to make? And it's also, you know, you don't, it doesn't need to be perfect. It doesn't need you don't need you don't need to change the world overnight. But maybe the small steps you could take and start with that,
Chris Rainey 29:46
yeah, I love that point. You have to link it like when we went through the whole chaos of the pandemic and obviously the transformation of HR leaders, as we did in person events, despite all the chaos, whenever we made it. Decision, because we couldn't base it, base it based on the news or or the government, because he never knew what was happening. So, but we based it from the foundation of our y of HR leaders, right? So we always had that solid foundation. So no matter if it's a pandemic, whether it's, you know, politics, whether it's you know, whatever crisis is throwing us, we can't react to that. We have to operate. Is this aligned with our values? Is it aligned with our purpose and make a decision from there? And that's been something really helpful, because you can make an emotional decision, a knee jerk reaction, follow a trend, get distracted. But we've just found, if we just align it with our values and the core principles, like, if it's the answer is no, we just don't do it. And that sometimes that's tough because you're like, we're missing out what we're doing, but you just keep to your point. It keeps you grounded. Even for myself, around fitness, I've kind of neglected my fitness over the last couple of years, and my why about getting fit is not even about me, is that I want to be able to be physically fit, to be with player of Robin, and that's a way stronger motivation for me to get eat, well, sleep, well, exercise. Because I want to be able to skate with Robin. I want to be able to do Jiu Jitsu with Robin. I want to be able to do that like, if it was just about me, yeah, probably wouldn't be be doing it as well. What's something that we haven't spoken about that we really should?
Emily Chiverton 31:21
Well. It goes back to what I was saying about how we need to well in society. We need to do more to help young people figure out what they want to do, because the things that you learn in school teach you transferable skills, critical thinking, you know, but what are we actually doing to help young people figure out what they're going to do every day of their working life? And the answer is actually very little, really?
Chris Rainey 31:53
Yeah, there's very few people that I know that actually have careers in what they studied. And one of the reasons why that they say that that happens is, I, they always say to me, I just didn't know what to do, and there was no guidance. So is that? Is that what you mean by that? Yeah,
Emily Chiverton 32:09
so I think that there's very little there's very little support, and people end up being heavily influenced by their parents or their peers or, you know, something that they've been exposed to somehow. But I think being really clear with people about the different options that are possible, and helping them to marry that to what they what they enjoy doing and what they're good at doing, is that, I don't know if you've ever seen that model of ikigai, yeah, where there's something sweet, some sweet spot in the middle. And I think one of the things, well, we do a lot on that at L'Oreal so we have very heavy emphasis on early careers, as I said, the Pepin years. And one of the things that we do is that we have an international business game competition called Brand storm, which has been running for 33 years. It's three years, 33 years I and I actually worked on it as an intern. When I was an intern in Paris, you went for it that I didn't, I didn't go through it, but I was worked on it. Obviously worked in the team. Yeah, that ran it. So it was, it's something that's quite meaningful to me over the long term, and then later, when I was in the early careers role in in L'Oreal UK, I also recruited people through brand storm and ran brand storm, and it's, it's an amazing competition. It's a global competition. There's 800,000 students who participated in this game. And how it works is that you students work in teams of three. Actually, you don't even have to be a student anymore. It used to be, but now anyone can just participate. How like online? Yeah, you just sign up online with your friends, and you know, you just, you get involved. And the idea is that you come up with, there's a, there's a every year, a different theme, and you have to come up with a pitch of an idea. And it could be, depending on what the brief is, that year, it could be a product or a service or a digital concept or something. And you come in the later stages of the game, you pitch your you pitch your idea to a panel of executives at L'Oreal, and the ones who win go and represent the UK in the international competition in Paris and and the ones who ultimately win the competition get offered a place on the management training program. So but all along the course of the game, you're being exposed to L'Oreal and learning about branding. So people who start with a hunch that marketing and branding is something they're interested in really get the chance to, you know, nurture that idea and see if, see if it leads them through the competition, and then at the same time, they get to meet us. And, you know, we hire people very successfully through that. So
Chris Rainey 34:28
that's incredible. I mean, I've got so many we could, we could have started the whole show on that and just done a whole show around this, like, how many people come out of that? Or just, well,
Emily Chiverton 34:36
there's 800,000 people that have participated globally in 33 years, but in L'Oreal UK alone, last year, we had 4500 people sign up for
Chris Rainey 34:45
it. And how many people do you choose out of that? Roughly, like, roughly, roughly, roughly,
Emily Chiverton 34:50
I don't know, but I mean, over the course of the game, hundreds of we've recruited through brand storms, a lot of globally.
Chris Rainey 34:55
Wow, that's such an incredible way to like as a first interaction. I. With an organization to really, because they're going to get to feel and taste culture and, you know, in a way that they just wouldn't by just applying for a
Emily Chiverton 35:07
job. Yeah, and it's sort of, it's it. We're paying it forward to young people, right? So we're kind of exposing them to what we do. But there's that aspect, but it's also we do it for our benefit, because we get to meet people really keen and, yeah, talented,
Chris Rainey 35:23
any like particular products or innovations that you can think of that come out, I've come out of
Emily Chiverton 35:27
that. I don't know, actually, I don't know over the course of the history, but it's true that were last year, I was on the judging panel for the UK and Ireland, and the team that one actually pitched an idea that we were already doing no potentially, but actually we were sitting there judging, kind of like, yeah, they're onto something here,
Chris Rainey 35:45
yeah? Cuz, I mean, that must be really cool, because they're they're coming, they're coming to the table without any preconceptions of what you already do, yeah? So they're going to come with really cool, innovative ideas that also represent their generation, that perhaps the team, yeah, that we absolutely thought of as well. So what a cool way to come into a business. Do you share like that? Any of that on, like, social media and stuff? Yeah, definitely like because, I mean, imagine the con. I'm just my content brains. It was
Emily Chiverton 36:13
just a few weeks ago, actually, the International final in Paris. They did it at Viva tech, which is this big tech Innovation Expo in Paris, and the grand final was at vivitek and studio once a year. It was once a year. Yeah, all
Chris Rainey 36:27
right, we're gonna have to find a link in the chat. You just missed it was, oh, we missed it. We'll do next one. We'll wait in there as well. But for you personally, before you kind of wrap up, what is it? What are some of your we mentioned about this before, but what are some of your passions and hobbies outside of the office?
Emily Chiverton 36:45
Well, you know, interestingly, one of my it's kind of circular, because one of my things that give me, gives me purpose, is helping people find what their purpose is. You may have gathered from this conversation. I gathered it, so I keep coming back to that and but in terms of passions, you know that what the things I rediscovered was music was one of the things that had given me a really enduring sense of joy and pleasure. And still now my Spotify, my Spotify is my favorite kind of escape. And when Spotify wrap drops in in December, you know, it just gets it just makes me so happy.
Chris Rainey 37:20
Yeah. Do you like? Is it like, do you like going for like, walks whilst listening as well? Or is it doesn't
Emily Chiverton 37:25
really matter to you? Yeah, it doesn't really matter anyway. In my car, my car is my favorite place to
Chris Rainey 37:29
listen. Sound like my wife, she's got on what she's like, we have to she's got the playlist down, and she's like, This is it? I haven't got choice. I'm in charge of the tunes. Yeah, and my daughter's in charge of the tunes is just every Disney playlist you can think of on the way in seven AI in the morning. Like, okay, great, if you, if you, if you wasn't in HR, what do you think
Emily Chiverton 37:53
you'd be doing? Oh, that's a good question. Maybe I'd be a psychologist or or maybe I would be a teacher, or maybe I'd be a hairdresser.
Chris Rainey 38:07
Just threw that one out of nowhere. But if you ever decide to do that, you got some good contacts,
Emily Chiverton 38:12
well, I'm quite good at doing hair. I do my kids hair. Yeah, they might tell you that
Chris Rainey 38:16
I'm not going to pretend that I am good at doing my daughter's hair, because my wife will call me out on it, so I try, and my daughter's like, when Daddy does it, it hurts. That's not really the reaction that I get. I'm not good at combing the hell. Sounds really bad, but what to say is the biggest investment you've made in yourself.
Emily Chiverton 38:37
I don't know if it's an investment, but one of the things that I did at one stage, maybe like 10 years ago or something, is I had an the opportunity. I was lucky enough to have the opportunity to work with an amazing coach who helped me to kind of tap into this point about what my values are and what I stand for, and so on. And one of the things that I did around that same time was I decided that I was going to do, like a reading experiment or journey, where I would read, and we, I did it with a colleague, actually, that we were going to read a different book every month for a year and so, and there's all books around this topic of leadership motivation. And it was honestly really amazing. It was one of the best things I ever did. And I did, and I still, you know, and it's part of going back to, you know, nurturing that spark of interest, and it led me to some really, really interesting discoveries. And it was very, very rich. And it's still something that I continue, wow, and you consistent. No, not so much, but I do read a lot. It's going back to passions. I do read a lot. I have always at least three books on the go, because I have one on my Kindle. I have one on my bedside. You read one in my one in my car. When I'm not listening to music, I'm listening to podcasts or books, so I'm reading really consuming a lot.
Chris Rainey 39:54
What say? What on that when you was reading those books, which one had the most impact? Oh,
Emily Chiverton 39:59
so many. I. And I was thinking about the element by Ken Robinson. Okay, have you heard of that one?
Chris Rainey 40:07
Yes, he did the TED talk. Yes. Was one of my favorite TED Talks ever of all time. Unbelievable. Yes. Made me completely talking about early exactly that was, that's actually one of my favorite TED talks of all time. People should watch that. I'll link it below. I haven't read the book, though, so I need, yeah, you
Emily Chiverton 40:22
should read the book. It's a good read. And there's, there's a lot that springs from that, but around positive psychology. So Martin Seligman, grit. Have you read that one? I read that one. That's amazing. You know, talking about, is it so empowering this concept of grit? Because it's something you can absolutely build and learn and grow and develop. And that's yeah. So I mean, so many
Chris Rainey 40:45
good books. I'll link them below. Listen, I got like, out of it before we we get too hot. What would be your advice for the HR leaders of tomorrow, they're going to be sitting in your seat one day? Yeah, I would say
Emily Chiverton 41:01
be be scrappy. Don't be afraid of failure. Doesn't matter if it's not perfect. Lean into what it is that you love. Figure out what it is that you love about HR and why you want to do it, not just chasing a job title or a promotion or more money or more status or managing teams or people, but focus on why you're really here. Like, what is it that you love about this job? And really nurture that that will lead you to where you're where you're meant to be?
Chris Rainey 41:28
I love that. I'm going to frame one last thing, because we're trying to create a new tradition where we get a question from yourself that we give to the next guest. Oh, wow. So you get to ask the next guest question. Oh, wow. And I'm gonna send it to you after Okay, so what question
Emily Chiverton 41:47
you're gonna ask me something
Chris Rainey 41:49
the last guest? No, so we're starting it now. Okay, all right, yeah, I literally just threw this out there right now. I was like, I've been wanting to do this for a while, and I feel like you would come up with a pretty cool question. So you'll be the first ever Okay, question for the next guest, no pressure.
Emily Chiverton 42:04
Okay, so what's the what's the legacy that you want to leave? Oh, all
Chris Rainey 42:11
right, interesting. We're gonna start this off now. Remember the years from now, you were like, I started to trend. Yeah. Oh, no, way through. That's me. But listen, I appreciate you coming on. It's so nice. I'm so happy we didn't in person. Funny People are listening is that you didn't know that this
Emily Chiverton 42:24
was video? No, I didn't know his video. I'm still pretending it's not, yeah, oh,
Chris Rainey 42:27
I shouldn't have broken, I broke the fourth wall. Sorry. I should never, I should never have mentioned it as well. But I appreciate you coming on the show, and I absolutely love what you're doing, and I love the fact that you found your why and your purpose, and clearly, from from from everything we've heard today, you're living that at L'Oreal so I'm super happy for you, and look forward to doing it again soon. Thanks. Thanks. Great to be here.
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Emily Chiverton, HR Director for the UK & Ireland at L’Oréal.