How to Unlock Team Resilience in the AI Era
Angela Cheng-Cimini from Harvard Business Publishing discusses the importance of listening and empathy in HR leadership. She explores how AI is transforming HR, the courage needed to address organizational challenges, and strategies for balancing professional and personal life. Angela’s insights highlight the evolving role of HR in today’s dynamic work environment.
In today's episode of the HR Leaders Podcast, we are joined by Angela Cheng-Cimini 鄭婷婷, SVP, Talent & CHRO at Harvard Business Publishing.
Angela shares her insightful journey in HR, highlighting the importance of being a good listener, the role of resilience in leadership, and the continuous evolution of HR practices.
She also discusses the impact of AI on HR, the significance of staying grounded while looking to the future, and the critical need for HR professionals to have courage and a voice.
🎓 In this episode, Angela discusses:
The power of listening and empathy in HR leadership
How AI is transforming HR processes and decision-making
The importance of courage in addressing organizational challenges
Balancing professional and personal life for sustained success
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Angela Cheng-Cimini 0:00
I should have been a better listener in the earlier days, years of my career, I think I was so eager to demonstrate that I knew everything. I had all the answers that I had the wisdom and experience, which I clearly had not yet accumulated on, but I think it's really, really plugged in HR professionals know when to just stop and listen, I think that's why we will do cultures are hard to scale.
Chris Rainey 0:28
Angela, welcome to the show. How are you?
Angela Cheng-Cimini 0:29
I'm doing great. How are you, Chris, thank you for having me.
Chris Rainey 0:32
I'm jealous that you just came back from your holiday. So I'm
Angela Cheng-Cimini 0:35
jealous to tell if you went
Chris Rainey 0:40
jealous as well.
Angela Cheng-Cimini 0:43
I'm serious. FOMO for your listeners. We were in Italy celebrating our 30th wedding anniversary. So swung through Milan, Sardinia, Naples and then ended in Malta. Some of the most beautiful waters I've ever seen. Yeah.
Chris Rainey 0:57
Maybe we just changed the episode to how to park with your partner for 30 years.
Angela Cheng-Cimini 1:04
That is the whole thing to be sure. Yeah.
Chris Rainey 1:07
This year is my 20 year anniversary with Natasha, we've been together since he was 17 years old. It'll be 20 years not wedding anniversary. But just since we've been together, which even together is a long time.
Angela Cheng-Cimini 1:22
Congratulations, that is quite the milestone. So I think you are deserving of an equally magnificent trip. Oh, don't
Chris Rainey 1:28
tell her that now you're gonna give her if she, if she listens to this, I'm in trouble now. Yeah. Before we jump into that one a little bit more about you, personally, and the journey to the role that you're in right now.
Angela Cheng-Cimini 1:44
So actually, my father helped me identify my major in university. You know, when you're 1718, you don't really know what you want to do with your life. But I was definitely not a science and maths kid. And I thought I wanted to do something in business. And I found a curriculum that turned out to be human resources, and just have never looked back. So I studied it as an undergraduate. And that has been my entire career.
Chris Rainey 2:09
So you're one of the very, very few people like as you know, I think we'd ended at 900 episodes, I could probably name 10 people that actually chose the very beginning. What was it like? Organizational Psychology, you're like, what was it? Yeah, like, definitely wasn't HR. Right? HR? Probably didn't. The acronym of HR probably even exist.
Angela Cheng-Cimini 2:31
Oh, am I handled? No. But
Chris Rainey 2:34
you know, when I started, it was personnel relations. Right, you know, so it wasn't definitely wasn't people.
Angela Cheng-Cimini 2:41
Know, you're 100%. Right. It was Organizational Psychology, organizational behavior, labor, economics, statistics. labor history. Yeah. So really, really fascinating. What one of the things I absolutely love about this discipline is I get to pretend to be counsel, you know, lawyer, psychologist, a little bit of a doctor, therapist, strategist. Um, you know, the diversification of this role, keeps it different every day, which makes it really fun.
Chris Rainey 3:09
Yeah. And tell us a little bit more about where you are now.
Angela Cheng-Cimini 3:12
So I'm currently at Harvard Business publishing, which is best known as the home of the Harvard Business Review.
Chris Rainey 3:19
Yeah, amazing, fascinating organization and SATs, stuff, Brandon apart that everyone probably has heard off right or consumed your content. So that's really quite interesting. I'm sure he didn't come across many people that don't know. Don't have a relationship with
Angela Cheng-Cimini 3:38
Yeah, no, that is one of the most gratifying parts when people say that they love our content, and they trust it.
Chris Rainey 3:43
Yeah. Me too. Like, since the early days was 17. On Up to now, it's always been part of my learning and growth, as well as the NSA, something that you've stood the test of time and are constantly being constantly challenging yourselves and innovating and reading the latest insights for everyone, as a world moves so fast.
Angela Cheng-Cimini 4:06
It was. So we celebrated our 100th Birthday two years ago. Wow. Um, and that's exactly right. The fact that we're continuing to be on the cutting edge companies that we've written about no longer exist. Yeah. And we're here for lifelong learners.
Chris Rainey 4:25
Amazing. You just said a minute ago is kind of the theme of our of this show you spoke about and when we first chatted just really stood out to me the many hats that an HR leader has to wear. Could you talk about you share some of those hats? But could you talk about how that's shaped your career? And both you as an HR professional, but also you personally?
Angela Cheng-Cimini 4:49
Yeah. So much about this job is learned as you go, right. I mean, we talked about my university curriculum, but it's really Getting in front of live people, and having those conversations, and living and breathing inside of an organization that is organic, right? I mean, it is filled with people, which means it is unpredictable. And so as much as we're trying to strategize and plan, almost nearly nothing goes exactly as you planned it. And so when you are trying to apply the law, when you're trying to apply organizational behavioral theory, when you're trying to apply the best listening practices, you always have to be prepared for Well, that's not quite how I see it. And I think being a fantastic Lister has probably been the trait that I have treasured the most in developing. Because until you really understand what's going on, you can apply a plan to it.
Chris Rainey 5:46
And that's, that's so hard, given the constant rate of change and disruption. How do you stay both in the present? And in the future at the same time, because it's kind of you having to have one foot in the present? Or one foot in the future all times, if that makes any sense? No,
Angela Cheng-Cimini 6:05
that's absolutely right. And so in fact, we're going to be undergoing probably the first time in this organization's history, a comprehensive Workforce Strategy Plan, which is an assessment of where we are today, and particularly with AI throwing everything into disarray. What are the core competencies that deliver value for our brand for our value proposition? And what are the core the core competencies and roles and capabilities, we will need to be successful in the future? So staying firmly grounded in the current in the present? What do we do? Well, what will deliver value? What are things that we've done that will no longer deliver value? Because it can be automated because it can be given what robot to do? And then what are the things we need to preserve? Or do brand new that I don't know, right now. And so there's a lot of investment to be made in some difficult decisions I expect around the things that we're not going to be doing anymore, and the things we have to start doing as an imperative. So yeah, you're absolutely right, one foot in the current and one foot in the future.
Chris Rainey 7:04
Yeah. Would you say? That's one of the things that's kept you engaged in your career? So, so long? Because you're always learning, there's always something new, there's always something around the corner, is never just, you know, you're definitely not going to get stagnant? Being in HR. That's
Angela Cheng-Cimini 7:22
so true. Because you can you understand that better than most admitted is never the same day, literally never the same day. Um, and, yeah, I do think that's what keeps us on our toes. And I think for HR to continually be relevant. If each day is the same, then you're not delivering value to the organization.
Chris Rainey 7:40
Hmm. That's a very interesting perspective. Yeah, I'm kind of like that with the team I, we kind of frame it as seeking discomfort. Like, whenever I feel like, everything's going really great. And we're doing the same things. And I'm like, that's like, most people idea of they love that. And that's my biggest state of fear. Because I feel like that means we're missing something. We're not innovating. We're not pushing ourselves. We're not challenging the status quo, like, and it's in those moments where the magic happens, really, you know, so I'm always like, seek discomfort, you got to know, because if you don't, you know, you hear the term was pretty crude, sort of the innovate or die, right. Like you've seen, like you mentioned, some of those companies that you started writing about are no longer there. Okay. I'm sure many of them, if they had a bit of a further foot in the future, they may be around right now. Because a lot of the times it's more rather than start doing things. It's also looking at what should we stop doing? It's just as important. Absolutely.
Angela Cheng-Cimini 8:50
Yeah, that's a difficult muscle to develop. Right? What are we going to walk away from?
Chris Rainey 8:54
Yeah, because it causes discomfort, right? Because it's the things that you're so comfortable with various processes that whatever its product, or whatever it may be, it's just, it's what you know, and what you do, and your body's like, Oh, this is comfortable. Is it and now you're saying, hey, we need to completely reimagine how we do things. And that's, that's difficult. No, human beings don't like change.
Angela Cheng-Cimini 9:18
Inertia. Absolutely. Yeah. And
Chris Rainey 9:20
I'm seeing the kind of wave with AI where there's this opportunity for people to reimagine the way to do work. And instead of doing that, they're just plugging on top of existing processes. Does that make sense? So rather than like taking the opportunity to say, hey, we're doing these things, and yes, I can empower it in these ways. But what if you started from from zero? What could you achieve? And then you get into a whole different type of conversation as well, but it comes with challenges.
Angela Cheng-Cimini 9:55
Yeah, it does. No, you're absolutely right. I mean, I think I'm and playing around with it on the on the fringes is okay, just as a toe in the water. But organizations have to get much more serious HR needs to get much more serious from the applications of AI and fundamentally changing how we process large amounts of information so that we can unlock the trends and patterns that are there that we can't currently perceive. There's there's a conversation that I'm involved in right now about how relevant engagement surveys are. And so you take all those massive amounts of data, and AI can probably synthesize and distill that for you in a moment. But the magic happens in what do you do with that data? So instead of spending hours and hours processing it, now you should be spending hours and hours doing some?
Chris Rainey 10:43
Yeah, it's freed up the time, it's freed up the time now for you. Because I remember I'd call up leaders in the past, and they're like, Hey, we're just doing an engagement survey. So you're in three months. Because it takes three months to do. I remember thinking that's that's a lot of time. invested. But now it frees you up the time to have meaningful conversations. And that's where the human element comes into it the same way now that AI is freeing up recruiters from all of the administration and auditor burden to actually have meaningful conversation with candidates as well. So those are the really the that it's funny, right? Because people talk about AI replacing the human elements, but it's actually freeing us up to have more time to have those those meaningful conversations and human interactions. Right. So it's kind of having the opposite effect I'm seeing in many cases.
Angela Cheng-Cimini 11:37
Yeah. So I heard someone very smart say that AI won't replace humans, but it will replace those humans who fail to learn AI.
Chris Rainey 11:45
Oh, 100%. Yeah, we're seeing that. I want to go back one second, to the point, you mentioned about the hats, the various hats. And you said that you learn that by doing and you learn it on the journey. Right, you know, looking back, what do you wish you would have known that, you know, now, that could help your younger self, right, because you experienced it the hard way? By, you know, you learn by Learn by Doing learn by going through transformations, etc. What do you wish you known that, you know, now?
Angela Cheng-Cimini 12:20
So on a moment of humility, Chris, I think what I wish I had known was that I should have been a better listener. In the earlier days, years of my career, I think I was so eager to demonstrate that I knew everything that I had all the answers, that I had the wisdom and experience, which I clearly had not yet accumulated. But I think was really, really plugged in HR professionals know when to just stop and listen. And, you know, and I think that's why really good cultures are hard to scale. Because how do you listen to 100,000 voices? How do you listen to a million voices? It's, it's easier in my organization when you 600 people. But that's only relative. If you were willing to lean in to listen to each one of those 600. That takes time. And it takes a lot of compassion. And I think when I was early in my career, I was I rushed headlong to jump to the conclusions without really understanding what was what was happening. And I think that's a practice that all good managers need to continue to acquire is how just to stop talking, and really seeking to understand.
Chris Rainey 13:25
Firstly, thanks for sharing that. I think we can all relate to that we have the sort of eagerness to please and have all the answers. And we think that's the dusty sign of strength. But in fact, it's actually the opposite, right? They wouldn't do they're willing to ask for help to let others have to make room for others, to have a voice, which empowers them. But it's quite difficult to do that, because you're so eager in your early career, right to impress have the answers and move forward. What was the moment for you that you had that realization?
Angela Cheng-Cimini 14:03
Um, well, I stumbled into a mistake. And my manager said, Angela, you need to slow down. You need to pay greater attention to what people are trying to tell you. He's like, look, you're bright. You will get there. But just take a moment. Take a breath. And that really caught me up short. And it was a lesson I needed to learn. I just didn't know it at the time. Yeah,
Chris Rainey 14:27
we never do, right. Yeah, no love that. We've all have this, you know, have a million things flying at you. There's so much to focus on the different hats are different. The pace of technology, innovation, how do you keep focused on what's important and prioritize? That's a big challenge for the leaders that I speak to every day.
Angela Cheng-Cimini 14:51
I think it goes back to what we were talking about, which is, you know, how do you keep grounded in the current with an eye towards the future so you just have to constantly work Was it? What are you working on today? Is does it move the needle? Is it tied to what the organization needs? My agenda only makes sense if IT services out of the organization. It should not be, you know, my agenda just because it's the whole stuff I want to work on. It's only cool stuff, if that's what the organization needs me to be doing. So constantly revisiting what's the Northstar was the compass and making sure that you know, that's the way in which my team and I are delivering value. So that does mean that day to day can look different. Like, yeah, I know, we were supposed to work on that. But now we're actually going to pivot and work on this. Because priorities have changed, something has changed, someone has left. Or we've you know, someone higher above us has made a different request, or we've lost funding or what have you. So being willing to pivot is another is another fantastic skill that all leaders need to need to really own. Yeah,
Chris Rainey 15:53
I love that point. I literally had this conversation with Team yesterday. So funny, you just mentioned it, where we we did like a big whiteboarding session where we were just writing down ideas and, and, you know, to stop the stop and start doing, continue doing. And one of the realizations that we came out of that is like a lot of things that some of us put up there. Were not aligned with getting us closer to our goal. So one of the things that came out of that meeting was like, is what we're doing, saying, right now getting us closer to our goal, if the answer's no, stop doing it. Right, because you can get caught up with the new shiny objects or the new thing. And but that now, if you can just operate from that foundation, like is what we're doing right now getting closest to our goal? And if the answer's no, then it's pretty easy to make a decision. Even though you might be excited about it, it might be really cool. That, you know, until that point, why should we stop doing that isn't getting us closer? You know, so when we look at start, stop, continue. We just looked at it through that lens. And if anything was getting wasn't getting us closer to achieving that goal? The answer's no. And that was really refreshing for everyone. Because it's like, okay, it's the mass level set. Everyone's everyone's super clear on that. And whenever something new comes to the table, we just assess it through that lens. And it's pretty easy. At that point. Decision.
Angela Cheng-Cimini 17:22
Yeah, yeah, it's good life advice, too, right? I mean, if spending time with toxic people in your life isn't making you happy, you probably shouldn't, right. And if there are toxic elements in your organization, you need to cut those out and address those so that you can thrive and be a great place to work. Yeah,
Chris Rainey 17:40
I did an interview recently, I sort of an entrepreneurial type podcast and someone asked me a question around, what's one of the biggest changes that you made that you contribute to your success, and it was exactly that is early in my life cutting out a lot of people around me, even to unfortunately, family, to the extent that we're just draining my energy toxic, and it was probably the hardest decision I ever had to make, but the best decision I've ever had to make. And I'm glad I did that earlier. And now I just surround myself with people that give me energy every single day. And it's and excites me. And I always ask that question in my last call way that she asked the candidate like what gives you energy like I wanted to like so like one of my questions like, What takes away energy for you? What gives you energy and you, you learn a lot about people? When you ask that question, as well, how do you take care of your own sort of well, being through this, you know, there's always something to do. There's never enough hours in the day. You're balancing home, you're balancing work. I would even say balancing you're integrating that into it and wanting the same. I don't even like the word balance anymore. Because there's this thing that you have to choose one or the other. Yes. So I like integration. Is that what how do you manage that?
Angela Cheng-Cimini 19:02
So the question is, I haven't come off this very long and overdue holiday, realize that I'm not taking enough time to just kind of pause and step away and reflect. It's good, because now I come back to work. And I'm energized and I'm more clear eyed around what it is I need to be working on. And so I probably shouldn't have waited so long in between this and my last holiday. And just time away is is good. But this this Commando, I got to just read through it and just keep going it. It's not sustainable. And so refreshing that tank and finding the energy to go to other things that are important in my life. And keeping those integrated and not letting them fall into disrepair is really important. And so that's something I need to do better. I need to model that for my team as well. We're not terribly good at taking time off. Americans are in fact the worst at it. I do
Chris Rainey 19:55
see that as well. I see that like a lot of videos. I'm like wow, like Yeah, we've just launched obviously, as you know, our co pilot, and we have so much to do and yesterday, was it yesterday? Yeah, yesterday, my daughter had a kind of stay and play date thing where you go and spend time with your kid at the school and you just have a play date with all the other parents, kids. And like, we had a million things on the agenda. I like 1000 things to do. But I just left in the middle of the day, I was like, the world was not gonna fall apart. Like I can spend two hours away and, and spend a day with my daughter in the playground having fun, and it broke my heart a few months ago, and I don't mind sharing this that she came home and said, like, you didn't come daddy and all the other parents today. Oh, the previous one. Oh, she broke my heart. Like I was like, you know, I was like, oh, man, like, if I'm, as I say that I worked as hard for the family. But what's the point? If I'm not going to be there? You know, for that for those moms. How old is she? Five? Yeah,
Angela Cheng-Cimini 21:00
five year olds can just cut it to the quick right. They don't mess around. They just because they're so pure. Yeah.
Chris Rainey 21:08
It's crazy. Because when we left the playdate, one of the other parents had come who obviously couldn't make it, but they were picking up their kid. And one of the kids said, Who knew that? That was they were like, Oh, well, where were you? Not here. And, and it was so awkward, right? Because that kids don't have any feel all right. Like, why didn't you? Why didn't you come? And then everyone could hear it? And I was like, ah, obviously, yeah. As off to that parent, as I feel you right now. So but yeah, I think it's a it's a really, we need to focus on what's important. As well, you know, because we can all make excuses of why we can't do things. But there's always there's always you just have to choose to create non negotiables. Yeah, you know, for me, I didn't even have lunch for the longest time. I was like, I need a scheduled lunch now in the calendar because I'm like, I just won't, I'll just find another reason to do another call. Or you know, and then if you can't operate at that level, as well, before let you go into I want to jump into our quickfire round. Yes. I'm gonna ask you some questions, but you only have 30 seconds. All right. Question. All right. What are your hobbies and passions outside the office,
Angela Cheng-Cimini 22:22
read and travel and eat.
Chris Rainey 22:25
I love good food favorite foods.
Angela Cheng-Cimini 22:27
So just having come from Italy, I had the best Spaghetti vongole, which is a clam dish. It was outstanding, simply prepared fresh ingredients I could live on.
Chris Rainey 22:41
If you could click your fingers and change one thing about HR today, what would you change? I think there are still
Angela Cheng-Cimini 22:46
too many HR teams that have yet to find their courage and their voice to do the right thing can be really, really hard. Um, but I think that is our sole purpose is to serve as the steward of the culture, the conscience of the organization. And that takes strength, and takes sometimes bravery. And I wish all all practitioners had that in spades.
Chris Rainey 23:09
Yeah. Love that. Love that. How do you think your family and friends would describe what you do for a living?
Angela Cheng-Cimini 23:17
Well, my daughter was fine. She was saying that I fire and I hire people. And I just read something else because we were together. And she said, like, you don't make organizations better.
Chris Rainey 23:27
And I love that. Yeah, that is normally the initial reaction. You're not the only one Don't worry a bit more of a personal one. But on the point of your kids, you know, what sort of what is the legacy that you want to leave behind? For the family?
Angela Cheng-Cimini 23:46
Oh, wow. I was always true to who I was that I was loyal to those that I cared most about.
And then I was kind. Yeah, my children are growing up to be fantastic humans and will not take full credit for that. But it is, you know, when your daughter grows, you know, everything that they grow up to become is only a sliver of what you did a lot of it is their own choice. And I am so pleased to know that they've made good choices. Amazing.
Chris Rainey 24:21
That's great. What do you think it's a bit of a strange one, but what do you think that HR leaders aren't talking about enough? But they really should be.
Angela Cheng-Cimini 24:39
I have these three questions Chris.
And I, um, I think it depends on your organization, what is the elephant in the room in your organization? And whatever that is, you should be leading the charge on. If it is, you know, or being scared about AI, lead that charge if it is We think there is toxicity that we're not addressing, talk about that if your hybrid work model isn't working, make that the thing. But be the voice of the organization because that is that is why we came to be we are here to represent the employees so that the organizations can be best. And whatever that thing is you're not talking about. You don't want to bring it to the
Chris Rainey 25:19
table. Yeah, it goes full circle back to your other point around the courage, right? Yes. Right. So I love that. Love that. Who would you say some one person in your career has had the biggest impact on your career?
Angela Cheng-Cimini 25:35
There's probably not a single person, although there was a mentor very early in my career. His name is Jim Lawler. And he had my back at the moments when I didn't even realize I needed. I needed the help, right. I was I was doing the thing where I was eager. I had all the answers. And he showed me how to be compassionate. Here's a great teacher. And yeah, so So I guess, I guess, I guess Jamal are, but there certainly have been lots of other people along the way. Yeah.
Chris Rainey 26:05
Yeah. No, I love that. Because we always have those people along the way that sometimes see things that we don't see. And equally see things in us that we don't see in ourselves. Yes, yeah. And you kind of look back and I, I added that question, because I started thinking about that more recently, personally, around some of the people that helped me on my journey, I didn't really fully understood the impact at the time, until I look back, if that makes sense. Yeah, yeah. What are you most grateful for?
Angela Cheng-Cimini 26:39
You know, honestly, I'm grateful for my health. First, I recently read, the sick man only wants one thing, the rich man wants everything. I thought that was so true, right? No amount of money in the world can make you healthy. And recently, have spoken to people who have not been well who have not been healthy, or have heard of people who have passed. And there was only one thing that they wanted, right? It was just so that they could be healthy. So they can enjoy their life and be with their family and their friends. And nothing else really mattered, right? They just wanted to be able to get out of bed and feel alive. And I think we are living in such an amazing time. There are lots of things to be really pessimistic about. But if you can have your health than you can make a difference. We should take our energies and do that. Yeah, I
Chris Rainey 27:29
love that. And I think we could all take that advice to take care of ourselves a little bit more especially HR professionals, in my experience, as well, so it's good to you took the time out for the holiday and time so because I only realized that maybe like a year ago, like in order for me to be the best husband, the best dad, the best leader. It starts with me. No, I thought I was I thought by sacrificing myself for everyone else that that that I was in service to them. Now I have to be in service to myself first in order to be the best leader and dad, etc. For everyone else. So yeah, I think that's a good place to end it as that was great. I want to say that was so nice. And I appreciate you coming on the show. It means a lot. Oh, thank you for sharing your experience. It was a pleasure.
Angela Cheng-Cimini 28:21
being here. Thank you. Thank you
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