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In today's episode of the HR Leaders Podcast, we welcome Jennifer Moore, Senior Vice President & Head of HR at Standard Industries.

Jennifer shares her insights on the evolving talent landscape and how organizations can adapt to the shift toward a skills-based economy. She explores the importance of continuous learning, executive coaching, and the integration of mental health support in leadership development.

🎓 In this episode, Jennifer discusses:

1. The role of AI-powered coaching in democratizing development.

2. How integrating mental health with leadership improves performance.

3. The importance of personalized, continuous learning for retention and growth.

4. Tackling the shift to a skills-based economy and its impact on talent strategies.

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Jennifer Moore 0:00

We're moving into more of a skills based economy, right? Where, you know, this is a big shift that's happening. We're saying, Okay, we don't want to hire people in boxes, and we want to look at skills taxonomies, and we want to look at skills clouds, and we want to upskill people. People aren't robots, right? These are great opportunities for people. I think this creates longevity and retention, and I think even when you think of an aging workforce, this allows us to look at, well, how can we squeeze more out of people who are truly institutionalized in our companies, or who may be older people that can be re skilled or up skilled in some way, but even in that, those are pressures, you know, people coming into new roles or having to learn things quickly. Yes, it's an opportunity for people, but these are human beings, and there are pressures that come with that.

Chris Rainey 0:52

Jennifer, welcome to the show. How are you? Thank you. I'm very well. Chris, thank you. Nice to see you again. Is that guitar on behind you? It is indeed. It is, indeed, it's a Gibson. I don't have any idea of the exact model, but I gifted it to my husband, who didn't know he would be as proficient as he now is. And that started a few years ago, and he's actually pretty good. I thought he was gonna play us a song. I got really excited the first ever performance on the podcast. I could bring him in. I could bring him if you really need it. Yeah. I My co founder, Shane, who, you know, he's his dad was a guitarist. So I know that Gibson is a very great guitar that's I know that because I remember he'd be like, don't when we were kids. I mean, Shane grew up, me and Shane grew up together as next door neighbor. Okay? So he'd always be like, stay away from the Gibson. And I were like, okay,

Jennifer Moore 1:39

anywhere else but not the Gibson, yeah, and they're beautiful. They're really beautiful to look at, yeah. Anyway, how you been? How's the family? Everybody is fine. We're just closing out the summer. So school has started again here in New York City, and that was successful, thankfully. So, not good. That continues, yeah? Like, I think by the end of the summer, the parents are like, how when's when they're going back again. What

she was actually asking at the start of the week, she says, You know, I'm really I'm ready to go back mom. I was like, Okay, I don't know whether to be offended. Nobody

Chris Rainey 2:12

was the same. She's like, Daddy, I haven't seen my friends in ages. And I was like, wow, I forget and and they're entertained in school, they're stimulated. They've got all their friends around them. So yes, it's great that they want to spend it with us, but I'm sure they have more fun

Jennifer Moore 2:26

before we jump in. Like, tell everyone a little bit more about your your journey and background and how that sort of took us to where we are today in this current role. Yeah, I, you know, I have 20 years or so, 20 plus years or so, at the cross section of talent and HR. So I started my career on the agency side, and really loved helping companies figure out talent, right? So that was mainly from a talent acquisition perspective, you know, the Russell Reynolds and corn ferries of the world, right where I was at the beginning of my career. But that evolved into me really wanting to be embedded right on the, on the on the on the on the client side, to take things through to full implementation and to grow and evolve, right? It was a, it was a fairly long journey to do that. So, you know what, what I did on the agency side kind of evolved into me doing kind of consulting for companies that were looking to transform talent agendas, right? So in one role I had, it was really focused helping banks look at digital transformation and what that meant for their talent strategies, right? And how they went about, you know, looking at the organization, looking at talent, and then how to acquire and develop that talent. And then I joined Samsung. That was my foray into the private sector, and then was recruited to standard where I am today. So it's been a journey. I'm very passionate about it, and so I'm excited to be here to talk a bit about all of this stuff with you today. Love that I remember that period, by the way, when the finance companies were going through that big digital transformation, because it's one of my friends was an executive there, and it was a huge shift, yeah,

Chris Rainey 4:06

in that space as well. And I remember him talking to me about it being like, Chris, this is going to be an uphill battle, yes,

and now that there's not even in many, in many banks now there's not even a location,

even a branch. So we went from that being in, you know, going digital, to now with, you know, are you Starling bankers? One of my one of the banks, there's not even a branch, right? No. I mean, I do everything from my phone. I don't carry credit cards typically. I mean, sometimes, and I certainly never carry cash. It's crazy. So, yeah, so I know for all of that, and it kind of won't be a surprise given what you just mentioned. Your background a huge passion of yours is executive coaching

as well. Could you talk about, firstly, why is that such a big passion of yours? And then we can kind of jump into your thoughts and perspectives of the future of executive coaching and how we see the landscape shifting, because it has shifted.

Jennifer Moore 5:00

A lot in the last couple of years, absolutely. And you know, I want to start by saying, you know, first of all, I'm a huge fan of your podcast, and have listened to the various incredible people you've had on to talk about this and many other subjects. So I want to, I want to just be clear that, you know, I'm not a world expert on coaching, but I'm a practitioner in terms of, you know, implementing programs and and opportunities or offerings in my current role, certainly, and I'm very passionate about it. Just, you know, when you look at the overall kind of learning, where learning is going, this continuous learning curve that you know we are all on, and how to really maximize that or optimize that within the organization,

coaching for me, you know, in my current organization has taken a very interesting turn over the last few years, because we have been able to integrate the traditional aspects of coaching. So if you think of traditional executive coaching, one on one, coaching, whether it's done virtually and in person, to talk about very specific things that you're addressing as a new leader, or whatever it might be right in your role, and really integrating that with more of the mental health components right to create

a more bespoke or customized and more personal journey for somebody as they enter into a new leadership role, or as they're trying to address challenges that the organization as a whole are challenging, which creates, you know, inordinate pressures on people so you know, and what that looks like today, Chris, for us is, you know, it's Integrating the traditional coaching with relational what's called R, E, B T, so it's the precursor to cognitive, cognitive behavior therapy. It's relational emotion, emotive behavior therapy, R, E, B T, and it's great because it kind of, along with the more traditional aspects of coaching, helps people. The coachee, how do you deal with stresses every day as a human being, not just as an employee of this organization. And it really has been amazing to be able to do that, because it's a unique structure that we've had, but it's been really successful people have. There have been market changes in the way people operate in the organization. And while we haven't necessarily looked at ROI from, like a fiscal or a quantitative perspective. We've looked at it from, you know, surveying and just, you know, looking at how people are evolving and improving in their leadership roles. So it's early days yet, I would say with that. But it's so far, it's really, it's really positive. And then the there's another kind of third leg, or to the stool, if you will, is the integration of of AI powered or digital coaching to further democratize coaching beyond just new leaders or the leadership kind of level to people who you know, it's a self directed you can do it from anywhere, anytime. We haven't rolled that out yet, but it's something that we're looking at as, like I said, as this kind of third leg, and we're looking, or talking to balance right now, which is an a coaching an AI coaching platform. Love it. Well, there's a lot to dive into.

Chris Rainey 8:19

What, first and foremost, what, what made you reassess your executive coaching and kind of, or was this something that, when you came in, that was always on your agenda, to relook at how we're currently doing it versus what we feel like needs to change? Certainly, there are two, I think two, two aspects of it. One is, you know, coming out of covid, I think everybody in the world right, experienced shifts in terms of what it was to

Jennifer Moore 8:51

well understand the complexities of people at work, right? So we were all forced into this world where some of us adapted very well to being to being remote. Some people have really big issues, uh, related to that, um, and people were scrambling. Everybody was scrambling. How do we create more connectivity in this remote world? How do we ensure that people are getting the support that they need? It was, it was hard for everyone. Um, even coming back, though, after covid, you know, we were really looking closely at how, what are the challenges people are facing as they're reintegrating. And, you know, we were seeing that people were having a difficult time not only connecting back to one another. So, you know, people were kind of, you know, even though everybody was coming back, people were more siloed than ever. And people you know having new stresses that emerged, right? So, having to find their way back to childcare, trying to find their way back after three ish years, right? Of establishing either a balance of what that looked like at home with with you and your husband or you and your spouse, or whatever that looked like, or even if you're if you're seeing.

Old parent, what that looked like. People made it work. So coming back into the organization, it was, you know, it was hard for a lot of people to manage that stress.

Chris Rainey 10:09

The other part of it, the second driver, is really looking at the various challenges that we're all facing and that continue to evolve in the in globally, that are impacting talent strategies in organizations today. So coming back to shifts in the in the market, so or geopolitical things happening. Obviously, the war is happening. We're seeing an emergence of, you know, competitive, you know, war for talent. As Asia continues to emerge, we are various other things that are not within our control are impacting, you know, talent and so that impacts how we look at the business and how we operate day to day, and adds to the pressure people are being asked to take on different roles or expanded roles. And you know, I think when you marry that with some of the, you know, emotional issues people are having, it has created a lot of a lot of of stress for people. And so we monitored both of these kind of things, and I came up with an idea that my, you know, my leaders were very supportive of trying, and that is to incorporate, you know, coaching, the traditional coaching, with the with the mental health coaching. Love it. Well, it's interesting, because a lot of these challenges that we you just brought up, I think are quite some of them are very new. They didn't even exist right before. So what you know? You know, the whole Marshall What Got You Here Won't Get You There, right? Quote, right? Our leaders are facing challenges now that they're just not prepared for, right, whether it's leading remote teams or the mental health crisis, right? And leading with empathy, you know, leading with empathy wasn't something as part of my leadership training when I became a leader or or, you know, the geo geopolitical, you know now every company is expected to have a stance on and they're like, Okay, how do I even, you know, react to that? So a lot of the a lot of the traditional executive coaching and training doesn't touch on all a lot of the things that you just mentioned, right? So we need to support them, and now more than ever, to be able to do that. But I also love that you've taken this opportunity to harness the power of AI to now offer that scale, which we just couldn't do before. And that's one of the exciting things that we can do, not just for the top of the organization, but all a couple of layers down, to give people that opportunity, I would love that earlier in my career, to have to have that opportunity as well. But even, even, even even, even at the top level, like you said, you're still taking the time to make sure that it's tailored. Because there was, there's always been, like, normally, this one size fits all executive coaching. But you know, you have to meet that individual where they're where they're at depending on their specific challenge. And there's no quick way of shortcutting that

as well. That is, that is just hard work and taking the time to sit down and understand that as well, absolutely. And when you consider Chris that,

Jennifer Moore 13:18

you know, we're moving into more of a skills based economy, right? Where, you know, this is a big shift that's happening. You know what we're saying? Okay, we don't want to hire people in boxes, and we want to look at, you know, skills taxonomies, and we want to look at skills clouds, and we want to really, you know, and we want to upskill people, you know, people aren't robots, right? These are great opportunities for people. I think this creates longevity and retention. And I think even when you think of an aging workforce, this allows us to look at, well, how can we squeeze more out of people who are truly institutionalized in our companies, or who may be older people that can be re skilled or upskilled in some way. But you know, even in that, those are pressures, you know, people coming into new roles, or having to learn things quickly. Yes, it's an opportunity for people, but these are human beings, and there are pressures that come with that. So I think it's just ensuring that there is a level of customized, you know, meeting people where they are, and you mentioned it just a moment ago, democratizing it beyond just the leadership you know level, but also just acknowledging that you know, people at even the most senior level who may be accustomed to running PNLs or doing things at larger scale are still you know, none of us are equipped. You said this, none of us are really equipped with these challenges that we're now facing in the in in the in the workforce, or in the global at a global scale. The other side of this also is that you have, I won't call them, competing philosophies, or, you know, like things that are going to create acrimony and companies and that is around you.

The philosophy of work, right? If you think of the global workforce, dynamic shifting in terms of the generational component, right, boomers are retiring or slowing down, you have the Gen X and millennials that are going to be the managers of our organizations, right, starting next year, by the end of next year,

and their philosophy on work is different, right? In terms of their approach, in terms of, you know, what they expect out of work, you know, I've been hearing a lot about, you know, the dopamine lists, that, that, that the Gen Z's and are creating for themselves to ensure that in everything they do there's balance between putting, you know, a lot of effort into the work that you do, but also ensuring that there's a lot of care that's being taken for your mental state or what have you. And then there's a lot of diversity that's around the workforce is becoming increasingly diverse, right? So, you know, this notion of inclusion is part should be part of the DNA of an organization. Easier said than done, yeah, of course. But you know, when you think of continuous learning and upskilling and thinking about, what does it mean to create a fully, you know, actualized person at work, bringing your whole self to work. I think those need to be, you know, any mechanism you bring into the organization has to reflect that, not only so, you know, we have to think about profitability. We have to think about keeping our companies healthy. But I think that, you know, with the advent of these new technologies, and, you know, with psychological safety being on everybody's mind, you know, around being able to be okay, to be vulnerable in terms of your mental state at work. Um, making these more normalized conversations, I think, enables us to then be more creative or more modernized in our approach, in terms of how we develop and, yeah,

Chris Rainey 17:01

you're right.

I love your point around the DEI well being doesn't should sit in a function. It should be in the fabric of the business, right, the values of the organization, and that should see all the way through to your product and customer in terms of the diversity of thought, which will lead to more innovation, which would mean, you know, which will benefit the bottom line, and similar, with a well being perspective that should be part of the DNA. And now this the new generation coming through. That's not a nice to have, right? That's table stakes, like, you know, they're looking at, is this company going to develop? Me To your point, is this company gonna take care? Are they inclusive? You know, all of those things are there, and that kind of leads me to a question I was gonna ask you, is, with the stigma attached around well being, how were you approaching the executive team on that topic?

Because I know for speaking to peers of during the past, they found that really challenging, because it's difficult for somebody's senior executives to be vulnerable and talk about mental health and well being, and, yeah, challenge, especially the higher you go, it seems like the more challenging it gets. It is.

Jennifer Moore 18:10

It's, you know, I'm lucky in that, you know, you talk data in organizations. We talk about it all the time now, right in terms of where, where the world is evolving, and how important data is, and being data literate in all facets, right? Well, that includes even about the person you know, who, who are, who are who, who are we? Right? And who each leader is, a is a person, right? So, but you're right. I mean, I'm lucky that I'm in an organization that we look at personally, personality inventories. We happen to use Hogan a lot. We're looking at, you know, all kinds of data as it relates to people, and we're asking them to open up. And this is leadership across the board. We actually, you know, are in the midst of a major exercise right now with our executive leadership team. And so that helps, because I think that kind of, there's a a

a notion or a belief internally that, okay, everybody is different. We don't necessarily hire new executives that are

the, the the world renowned leader in that field. You know, we hire people on a, on a, on a, you know, how do they fit the culture? You know, all these things that I think are great, right, and that, you know, we can teach the hard skills if they're lacking in some area. But again, that creates a lot of pressure. And we are in a company that we're a high growth company, there's a lot of things that we're trying to navigate, just like every other organization. And so we have found that by keeping a pulse on kind of who these people are and how they're evolving as leaders,

the data is showing, if you will, that you know, people are having a hard time adapting and.

You know, we can't just create this revolving door at the leadership team. So we're invested in saying, Look, you know, what do you what do we see that you need, and what do you tell us you need? And how can we meet you where you are? The pressures are still there, but I think it's just this really, and it's, look, it's evolving. I'm not saying we've perfected it, and a lot of this stuff we've just tried out in recent, like I said, in the last couple of years or so, there's been major success in that to say, look, we're willing to invest in you in ways that go beyond this, the traditional we need you to be, you know, responsible in terms of how you balance this, you know, this is, these aren't heavily emotional people. These are people that are just saying, Look, yeah, I'm trying, you know, I'm being open about the pressures. I'm not complaining about it. My my performance isn't waning. But for me to do this, and for me to actually acclimate, or to really be fully integrated into the culture, because our culture is one of we're very direct, it could be mercurial. You know, there's a lot of pressure, and so we're acknowledging that, um, I think that, you know, ask me this in a year, and I'll tell you if it's if it's if it's going from strength to strength. So far, we're getting more and more momentum around it, not only at the individual level, Chris, but also it's starting to see its way into team building, so where leaders are starting to see that it's, it's it's beneficial, and they want to carry that through to their teams. Love it psychological safety and a way to bring people along and say, look, the pressures that we all face are not going away. Let's create a more openness, and we've got some tools that we're creating internally to help ensure that you have as much support as you need from the organization, to the extent that it makes sense, right for both love that last week, by the way, the data does support is we did a panel where we had six global heads of well being just sharing kind of their strategies. We did an hour session. We had 1000 sutras join us from all over the world, virtually. And one of the pieces of data that came out from some research, they asked, I can't really accept the number a couple of 1000 executives

Chris Rainey 22:13

a question around well being and and one of the data points that came out that was 70% of those executives said that they would leave their job to join a company who would be if they were committed to supporting their mental health and well being. So that's how, that's how I was like, wow. 70% of them would say I would leave this job to go and work for the same salary, same benefits at another company if they were committed to my mental health and well being. So these senior executives do want

this, and they want it. They want it woven into the organization. Because, guess what, it helps them manage their teams. If they're, if that is an is a part of the fabric, as you said, that helps them. So it's, it is something that I think is is unilateral in some ways, and very personal to people, but, and I think it also speaks to the the notion of bringing your whole self to work like that, and including kind of the mental kind of aspects of it, is not a weakness, but it's a really understandable question to say, you know, how does the boardroom Look at this? You know, when everybody, when people have to look at profitability, and I'm so you know how many people are standing behind you to take this role, if you're too weak to do it, then you're just not right for the organization. That is not, that's not the approach we are taking, but it's not, it's not to say that there's, there's not a challenge around this to make sure that the balance is stuck, but you're acknowledging it right? Normally, when in my in my in my time, that it was the elephant in the room that no one ever spoke about, that's right? And as soon as I opened up and started speaking about my own mental health and well, being with my team, guess what? Relationships improved. They came to me when I needed help, all of a sudden, we could have a conversation. And part of that like to your point that you have to create the psychological safety in the first place to let that happen. Otherwise, no one's even gonna do that. Secondly, you have to give people the language to have the conversation. Sometimes people avoid these conversations. They don't know what to say. So it can be a simple guide of this, is what we mean by this. And now we can have a conversation if one understands where everyone's coming from. And then, and then, thirdly, obviously, then you talk about what support we can provide and help like, no point talking about tools and benefits until you get those first two things, building the trust, psychological safety, yeah, and giving people a language to even have the conversation.

And so, so why it's so important for leaders to demonstrate that themselves and for other people in the organization to see that

open it up. I want to get back to your

REBT coaching approach. Is that something being delivered by people that you've trained up internally, or is that something you're bringing externally?

Jennifer Moore 25:00

How does that work? Yeah, great question. No, we were fortunate enough to have Dr Debbie Joffe Ellis

come and she works with us. She's an external,

you know,

asset for us. She is a professor at Columbia, and also does, you know, individual counseling, but she works at this cross section, right of executive coaching, or more traditional coaching, and our EBT, and it's been successful for us, and what's interesting is that we've used it at the ELT level and also at the the Lower, lower level of the organization, like around, you know, like lower level, like, you know, assistance and stuff like that, so and so we have used her. She's also been a speaker at our women's network, our ERG, speaking on, you know, how to balance yourself in terms of the emotional stresses and how to deal with complexities at work or complex personalities at work, and how to just create a safe space for yourself and some pretty it's called the elegant solution, in terms of how the approach to this and it simply is, you know, framing and reframing, how You process certain things that are happening to you. And in this context, it's at work, right? And being able to, you know, reset how you think and how you process, right, what's happening to you, so that, as opposed to catastrophizing, which a lot of people do, and then they end up, you know, this is happening at work, and I have this happening at home, and then nothing's going right, and you end up, you know, digging yourself further, feeling helpless, right? It's feeling right. This enables you to put things in perspective. And what was very interesting is, you know, within the first week, and it's not that Dr Ellis discusses this, because, by the way, the normal, you know,

the normal things that apply to the standard coaching process applies here. So, you know, confidentiality and all that stuff. But the two coachees that she has worked with have were very open in terms of their experience, and both, you know, started seeing a change in terms of how they approached work and the challenges that they were dealing with within the first week, because they're just very straightforward tools and very, you know, transparent mechanisms that any of us can do, you know, as human beings. So

it's, yeah, we were lucky enough to partner with Dr Ellis, and she's still part of our cadre of coaches today. Amazing. So you do have, like, a roster of external coaches that you work with depending on different needs? Yes, we've been building that over the last couple of years. It's been, you know, we are building that as we figure out what we need, you know, okay, so, but, but, yeah, we're trying to, you know, because it's important also, as you, as you leverage coaches to ensure that there's this balance between what is the the employee need, right? So, you know, you have to have a good relationship. That's what I was gonna ask. That's the reason I was asking that, by the way, to go around, is there has to be a good fit. You can't just bring in a coach, and not everyone is not every coach, and every executive or employee is a good fit. This is what I was trying to get at, like, how do you balance that? Because I've seen that become a disaster. That's right. Income companies, and there's That's exactly right. So when I say a cadre of coaches, I think it's a diverse, you know, set of coaches that are really great at any number of things that we're noting as being, you know, kind of consistent things that we need to address internally, but also the you know, coaches who understand how we operate. We have a lot of idiosyncrasies within our organization, our culture, as many as all companies do, and so it's kind of that recipe. So we continue to build out. One thing that has helped is I was able to bring in a coach who we've been working with for several years. She's our Hogan coach, but she's licensed and certified in many other different facets, but she knows our organization very well. She's been working with us for several years, and so she's now embedded to help figure out, you know, what? What do we want to hang our hat on in terms of a coaching philosophy. How does that tie into our talent philosophy? Um, you know, we didn't want to be slapdash about that. We wanted it to be based on, you know, how, how is this playing out? Um, you know, let's look at how these various things that we're trying to to embed.

Chris Rainey 30:00

Um, how well it's it's working or not, and it is is working. So I think next year will be the year where we, I think, kind of put everything in a more clear elevator, kind of pitch in terms of how we approach coaching under the broader, like umbrella of learning, continuous learning and development. So we're getting there, but the investments are being made, which is, is obviously a key step that, yeah, many organizations I'm speaking to you haven't even got that far, so you got a great team behind you, is huge, right? And they're leading. They're leading first, right? Yes, I want to talk about some of the data that you, that you and the team sent over, which I thought was quite fascinating. So we know the coaching industry is estimated around to be worth around 15 billion globally. And by 2025, which I thought was quite it was, was an interesting one, the AI coaching market is projected to reach 11 billion, which was a bit of a shock into that when I first,

Jennifer Moore 31:03

when I first read it, yeah, and 72% of HR professionals believe AI coaching tools will be commonplace within five years. Now, you're already on that journey right. Right now we spoke about a few of the benefits and considerations, because you're talking about what kind of give us a bit more detail, why you think this is important, and then we can jump into some of the details. Yeah, I mean, why it's important. So, you know, AI is on everybody's mind. It is, you know, where we are with AI. It's an unavoidable thing, and it's something that, if used and implemented in the right way, it can be incredibly useful, right? I don't think that's refutable, really. I think the the challenges around legalities and compliance and ensuring you know all of the stuff that certainly my legal team and compliance team are, and it and digital everybody is, is evaluating, and will continue to evaluate our top of mind. And I think that's part of the challenge around this, right? You don't just, it's it, you know, it's a great platform. Let's just roll it out. We haven't even got, you know, we're in pilot stage. We're approaching pilot stage. We've done proof of value. We've done all this stuff on the back end that we need to do so but, but I think so my and my organization, my two principals, the two CEOs, are very forward leaning in terms of, I mean, even before the big the big bang, if you will, on AI we, they were looking at, how do we modernize? What are we not doing today that we need to think about doing? Right? So it starts with that DNA, right? Yeah, and we've been tasked with looking at what are the use cases, the most viable and productive use cases, based on who we are, the challenges that we and our people are facing today, and what makes sense? So as we think about this umbrella that we've been building in terms of learning and development and coaching, as I've mentioned, this was that third leg to the stool, and something that we're hopefully going to roll out next year in terms of a bonafide pilot, which would then, you know, proliferate. The other why, if you will, is democratizing. You know, the the the coaching as as mentioned. But it really is, you know, if you look at, you know, what do even today, you know, people don't have time for a lot of one on ones in person or even zoom. You know, they want to do them from their phone. They want bite sized learnings. They want to, you know, a true, they want it to be truly self directed. And the coaching platform that we're looking at allows for that. The user interface is simple. It's you know, flawless in terms of

actually getting you know, in terms of voice recognition, voice to text, whatever, all of those things that make it just really useful for people to do it on the go, whenever they need it, is why we're looking at it. So I think it's the customization, the access to it, the ease of use and the democratization of it, really that are are driving the why

Speaker 1 34:17

of it. Have you looked at it also in terms of teams? Because I'm seeing another a lot of companies looking at now is, is coaching at scale, but through teams? Have you ever looked at that before we are Yeah, it's not. It's certainly in this particular area, not, not yet, but the in terms of teams, yes, we're starting to evolve that, and there's a lot of activity happening, not only at the holding company where I am, but in the operating entities that we own as well. Yeah, and we feel that that is something that I mean, is going to be a hugely important aspect of this. Yeah, for sure. That's my point earlier, though. I think one of the powerful things you have of doing coaching at scale with AI.

Chris Rainey 35:00

Technology is you have that ability, like we discussed, to match people with the right coach, yeah, and people that represent them, their backgrounds, their culture, their perspectives, their personalities. And that's difficult to do without AI and the ability to do that. And to the other point, it can also customize

using, using that. And very lastly, it can show up in the flow of work, right? You don't have to go to an in person workshop somewhere. You could be at home. You could be wherever. Basically, it meets you, where you're at and the user where they're at, and delivers it in a way that works for them

as well. And it's cheaper

that helps too, at scale, obviously,

to be able to do that. So it's, it's super exciting to be able to offer that, and you can kind of really start generating those built, developing those leaders of tomorrow, and start kind of recognizing who are those hypertensibles that perhaps you may have overlooked. And also, you know, especially with remote teams like typically, those want those data that shows that those, those that are in the office get promoted, right? There's, there's a lot of data out there that shows that, yes, now we can, you know, wherever people are throughout the world, people have, there's equity, you know, equal opportunity for everyone as well. Yes, and that's something I'll tell you. You know, when we, we, we went back to, well, in the city here for one, and then in our operating entities, there are 332,

Jennifer Moore 36:35

that's, I know a lot, a lot of companies are doing that, but that I really, I feel that the hybrid construct is certainly not going away and will perhaps become even more prevalent depending on, you know, on these generational shifts that I spoke about earlier, where philosophies of work really are changing, and if you marry that with the notion of the war for talent, or there just being constraints,

you know, in terms of of access to talent, companies need to invest in to figure out how to not only accommodate that and to enable, but to your point, create equanimity or equality around how people are being developed and how teams are coming together as well. Because there is, as you said, you know,

people who might be remote and part of and teams who are, you know, the remainder of their teams, and the majority of their team is, is in office, let's say

the importance of ensuring that there's integration and connectivity there and there, that has to be something that you do thoughtfully. And it has to be

really woven into the broader kind of strategic framework. It can't just be an add on. Do you know what I mean? Yeah,

Chris Rainey 37:51

yeah. I think that's crucial, and that's something that I think we are we haven't fully in terms of that hybrid approach or that looking at the remote folks, because they're the minority of the organization, but they're key people, you know, and so it is something that is definitely on our minds and that we need to continue thinking about, yeah, and especially as the talent pool and landscape becomes more global, as with hybrid work and a gig economy, you also have to understand the focus on the individual's demographic? Yes, yeah. You want to have someone who has a coach that doesn't really understand their cultural nuance, or you know their business in that particular region, right? Because then you just kind of mismatch as well. So there's a lot that we couldn't do in the past that we can do now. We have Gen AI to be able to support, and we haven't even spoken about the fact that we have the data now we also have the data to understand, is it actually working? That's right, there's always, there's always this debate. In the past, they did that one day or two day, you know, coaching workshop actually deliver value. You know, it was hard to gage back then, totally and now there's so much interconnectivity there in terms of how you can tie that to your, you know, a talent marketplace and skills taxonomies, and then you would tie, you know, I mean, there's just, I think, and hence why, you know, the whole notion of data literacy, right has taken on a new meaning, and the requirements for that are for precisely the reason you just mentioned, ensuring that we can use data to make the right decisions that are efficient, that are targeted, that are make meaningful, you know, that address meaningful, the meaningful challenges that I think every company is going to face in one way or another. Yeah, when you was looking at like a potential provider, because one of the challenges for people that listen to the show and I chat to is it's kind of like a bit of a minefield out there. There's a lot of vendors the claim.

Mean, just to solve all your problems,

everything, how did you What were some of the questions that you asked or that you had as, like, you know, Visa are criteria for the company, yeah, what was just a few of those things that you like, visa?

Jennifer Moore 40:16

Um, I mean, from my perspective, you know, some of these, you know, are really opportunistic, right? And knowing, you know what we're trying to address internally. And then, you know, go to conferences, or I'll go to round tables and meet people, and then either do a demo or just get kind of a lay of the land on, how does it work? How scalable is it, you know, and then really just moving into, let's, let's, let's get the right people around the table at my organization to ask the right questions in terms of the, you know, represent, you know, I have a working group, right? So people from the digital team, somebody from it, you know, all coming around and at very early stages, understanding how platforms work, the user interface. You know that that that comes very early. And so for balance, for instance, I met Parker Mitchell, the CEO and founder of balance, at a at a conference, and I was able to do a demo with him on on, you know, at the at the at the conference, and I was blown away.

And I'm also, once we get through that kind of early stage evaluation, where everybody feels comfortable with, okay, they have the, you know, the structure and kind of the the A B's and C's of this are in play, then we, we have an incredible digital team who has a couple of people On the team that are AI focused, that help vet further proof of value. So we'll do that with them, but they ensure that we have all of the bells and whistles in there, and then, once we get all of that done, and people go through like a preliminary, it's not quite a full on pilot, but we just have a select number of people from these various groups that I just mentioned actually try out the platform for an extended period of time,

and then once we decide, yeah, we want to try to launch this as a pilot, it goes to compliance and legal. So that's kind of where we are once we get everything else. So how far do you think you're away from launching balance, I would say, I would say, at some point next year, for sure, but we're trying to build with the data that we're getting from this other work that we're doing with, like the coaching and the learning platforms that I mentioned, both on the individual and the team level. We're trying to utilize that as part of the case to be made, but I you know it, there's no question that. It's interesting. It's just, I think people understandably get very caught up in, well, okay, we're just leaving anybody to get on this platform, because the normal constraints apply here around confidentiality, we don't have access to the data, are if people are expressing a concern over something that really should be directed to a human HR person. Is Nadia, for instance, ensuring that well, is Nadia advising them to go to the HR, the human HR person? And so, you know, those are the things that we just want to make sure that the information that is being given, or the advice being given is within the confines of of that's the challenging part. Yeah. So Nadia, for everyone listening, is the AI name of, yes,

Chris Rainey 43:36

yeah. And what's, what's called by, I just was looking up, so it's voice enabled, so the manager can have a conversation with nali, yes, and it can help, help direct them to, yeah, the right resource or solution, etc, yes. So yeah, you're saying a challenge of that is just making sure that it does go to the right place

and gives the right context, and not being able to, you know, monitor that

you know, but you you don't monitor your coaching engagements either. Do you know what I'm saying, but, but I think there's a, there's a world of, you know, risk around when you, you know, if you're going to roll this out to all of your employees, you know the this is compounded, right? The risk is compounded, or, you know, the the the need for ensuring that there are the right levels of compliance and or the mechanics around that. That's understandable. Yeah, totally understandable. Totally one thing I like about these avatars as well, it takes off a lot of pressure off the managers to be able to have to remember everything. So having those nudges to check in with an employee, or a nudge to say, Hey, you didn't do this, or hey, send this email for feedback, but it's going to give you the AI to help write the message like anything you can do to sort of take off some of the burden and help support them and say it's.

So hard, right? So having those nudges, having AI to help you kind of write the messages to help you, know, to speed all of those things. And I'm sure it integrates with your existing communication tools. I haven't looked at it, yeah, to be able to show up in the flow of work like that, stuff is actually practical and gonna be used every single day

Jennifer Moore 45:21

in their role, absolutely, and they're, you know, and it's, it's not, I think, even with, with your traditional coaching, or even as we talked about what Dr Ellis does, it's to say, you know, if somebody is, is, is, whether it's through naughty or a human interface, right? Saying, Okay, here's my dilemma, or here's my issue, or here's what I want to know. It's providing tools and ways of thinking, as opposed to go out and do this and then, but then it's also providing endless sources of information, right? Just as generative AI does, right? That allows people to self direct, and with that comes, I think heightened level of productivity and of

of development that, you know, is will keep people engaged.

Chris Rainey 46:11

And so we, I think that that is, that is amazing. Well, one of the pieces of research I saw during the pandemic, which is reflected in balances offering as well, is that, and it was actually quite shocking at the time that it was something like 80% of employees would rather speak to an AI co pilot or assistant than their manager about their well being, which I was like, Wow. I was like, we got a lot of work to do, but seminar with managers, right? Like they also it's quite intimidating to go and ask your, you know, your CEO or someone for questions. So having a tool where they can ask questions too, without being judged or feeling you know, hey, hey, hey, how do I have this conversation with an employee? Or how do I support my employees mental health? Or how do I give feedback? Or just, you can list goes on, right? How do I lead a remote team? Effectively, having

Jennifer Moore 46:59

a tool that can just give you the answer straight away, and some practical things. Practical things is just huge. To be able to do that, when you think about this three legged stool as well, and, you know, with the third leg really being the democratization of it, it kind of, you know, it's helping leaders,

you know, figure out how to manage their set themselves right, to be the best version of themselves, but then also how to introduce that to their teams. So it's coming from, let's say, top down. And then, you know, as you just said, it'll, it's giving people, you know, this tool to self direct in terms of the coaching, where they may not feel ready or they may not feel comfortable going to their leader, but it still gives them, you know, ample knowledge and a leg up and hopefully some confidence right to be able to then go. Because I think the whole point of this is that it's a hybrid construct. AI is not going to take the place of human interaction. And I you know, we all, we all hopefully believe that, but I think it's a way to, as you said, give people

a way to to develop themselves, and hopefully then integrate that into how they connect and communicate with those around them, whether it's their peers, whether it's

Chris Rainey 48:26

externally, you know, with with the market, or, you know, with their with their with their bosses. Yeah, I, you know, I can only see the benefit in it, but, but also understand, as we said, understand that the risks need to be mitigated and fully understood, and that's that, and that's the and that's that's the responsibility of the organization, and quite rightly, you and the team are taking it slowly to make sure that you do that, and it is ethical

to do that. But to your point, a second ago, I am seeing that the use of AI for me is actually freeing me up to spend more time with my team, to have those human interactions, to be present. So it's actually the opposite of what people feared. Is it like the Replace? No, it's not actually replacing it's actually freeing me up to have more of those conversations, and removing a lot of the burden and the admin and processes and I'm automating as much as I can, and, and I'm finding I'm way more productive, way more presence from my team. I'm showing up differently to be able to do that, and, and that's kind of where I'm seeing the impact. And to our point earlier in a conversation, it also completely reimagines the way we learn, because now we're learning in the flow of work, right? It's not a course that I take, it's not a workshop I go to. I'm about to walk in a meeting with someone in my team, and I need to quickly, and let me quickly ask the question to the AI, okay, cool, great. And it'll sudden now I'm acting on that, learning in the moment, if that makes sense. And that's kind of how I use it, like day to day. I'm like, what can you do?

Jennifer Moore 50:00

Meeting, or I've got an email I need to write, or, you know, the list goes on, I'm learning in the flow of work. And it truly does become my co pilot. It really is, it does, and it's, it's, you know, and it also is, it's this democratization of knowledge as well. And I think what it helps for people is that it really instills this, you know, we're talking about in the context of coaching and this kind of, you know, in the self directed manner, but it really enables people to fully realize that, you know,

there's so much information out there, right? There's so much to learn. So when you open up, you know, a certain element of what you may be facing every day in your role as a new manager, or whatever it is, it really enables that kind of continuous learning. And

I think access to this portal, this world of information that you can then refine or take forward and just hopefully, and that was my point earlier, about saying, you know, hopefully it can help people and instill a level of confidence where, okay, it's not that I'm a bonafide expert, maybe or Z, but, you know, my thinking has evolved, and I really feel more confident bringing some ideas or feelings that I'm having or other other vulnerabilities, or whatever it is, to my superior, whomever. I think it has so much potential there. And

I And to your point, I think it frees up managers, or helps them stay really focused. And I just think it allows folks and their superiors to meet in the middle and to approach things in a more creative, very bespoke and customized way, where people feel I'm an individual here at work, and my individual needs are being addressed, and I have the tools to do it myself as well, yeah, which empowers people, right? And that leads into that leads to retention, and that leads to more engagement.

Chris Rainey 52:01

Absolutely. Yeah, I feel like we could talk about this forever. I could let you go at some point. Is anything that we haven't covered Jennifer that we've missed, or you wanted to make sure that we I don't think so. I mean, I think as the as these subjects evolve, you know, um, there are these, a few folks that I mentioned today, Anna Tavis, I think I mentioned, or maybe it was in the note I sent you, aina. Anna Tavis, yeah, who's at NYU, Dr Ellis, who I mentioned, and you know, Parker Mitchell from valance. They're all really interesting folks to have at some point, perhaps on your on your podcast. Oh, be amazing. And for anyone, for anyone, for anyone listening right now, I'll link to all of their profiles in the description, so you can check them out if you want to connect

with them. So you've heard great things firsthand for Jennifer,

so we'll tag them below. And

yeah. Well, firstly, thank you for coming on the show. I appreciate you sharing your journey, and that is the best important thing. It is a journey. This isn't something you know. This isn't a project that ends next week. It's constantly going to be evolving. So thank you for sharing where you are so far on that we'll have to do a check in, like, a year from now, like once you've kind of rolled roll it out, and you can kind of tell me from from this conversation where we are, we definitely should schedule that in, that'd fun, or even three months from now. Yes, we'll

do a series of your implementation

Jennifer Moore 53:24

and I'm honored, I'm honored to be on I really love your podcast. I mean it, and you've covered so many, you've covered pretty much everything, and the people you have on are really awesome. So I appreciate the opportunity, and can't wait to see where this goes. Yeah, well, I hope I'll see you soon at the next event in the US, so we'll see if we'll get to meet face to face as well. Be cool. But apart from that, and you enjoy us today, and I appreciate you, and I'll see you again soon. Yes, you too, Chris, thank you. Bye. Bye.

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